Free Flow WWE

[noumenon]

It's still a major character plot hole in the fact that Batista just a month ago was all about the title and now suddenly forfeits a chance to be in the chamber in favor of roughing up Bret and facing Cena. Unless it's implied that he's going to be receiving a title shot for his work for Vince I don't know what the whole point of this could be.
I still stand by the fact that HHH would have been the far more interesting and logical choice for Vince's back up in this situation. You want to talk about someone in desperate need of a character tweak and heel turn? Look no further than HHH. He's far more stale than Batista was. Only problem is that he's still a hell of a lot more over. But as I said, that only makes the heel turn better.

 

[Millzy Pt. 2]

It's still a major character plot hole in the fact that Batista just a month ago was all about the title and now suddenly forfeits a chance to be in the chamber in favor of roughing up Bret and facing Cena. Unless it's implied that he's going to be receiving a title shot for his work for Vince I don't know what the whole point of this could be.

A title shot for Tista early after EC perhaps? I couldn't see any other time he could get the title shot when we we're on our way towards WM26.

 

[noumenon]

Cena walking into Mania as champ is still a possibility don't forget.

 

[Great One]

To say Cena couldn't be a credible heel is just insane. His initial popularity sparked out of his first heel run with the rapper gimmick. He was an amazing heel. It just so happened that his gimmick fed a little too into pop culture and people started eating it up. Cena is nowhere near ready for a heel turn at this point, he's still far too popular and marketable. The problem is that they need to maintain his popularity through until his heel turn.... or else we're going to get Batista.
I for one can't stand Batista's heel turn as it was a direct result of his character being completely stale and it being the necessary move. That should never be the reason for a turn, it should be done for the shock factor, not out of necessity.

And difference between Edge and Orton's face turn. Edge is being forced down out throats as a face where as people are really starting to get behind Orton for their own reasons.

It's not that it should never be a reason, but I understand your dislike because of it being underwhelming and more so, predictable. Batista was STILL over when he turned dude, his character was just tired as fuck and I 95% assure you he requested for it and has been wanting to turn for a very long time (think he's stated it on a couple occasions).

Edge has maybe dramatically changed a little too much, but there's still elements of his old character there, I don't think it's a big deal. He should try to explain more for the change though, imo, otherwise I like the fresh Edge and what's evolving now.

Playing devil's advocate here. Did anyone believe when Tripe H was his blue blood character that he would eventually turn into The Game? Did anybody see Austin becoming the icon he turned out to be? Bottom line, is the bottom line. The guys are there to make Vince money, and entertaining us is second. Which doesn't make sense in and of itself because the more we are entertained the more money they make.



In what ways do you think that he can improve upon his character, as it stands now? Given what he has to work with, the guy is majorly over. I'd say that he has done a pretty good job with very limited resources.

I believe that as a character, Batista is much more likable as a heel. I just never liked him as a face. but all the character in the world doesn't excuse the fact that the guy is shitty in the ring and on the mic. Character push can only take somebody so far if they don't have the ability to back it up. Somebody pointed out last night that it was just obvious that he doesn't care anymore and is just biding his time. I agree. Batista's character has always been based on intensity, and I just don't get that from him anymore. Sure, he isn't completely responsible for the angles he is handed either, but a little effort would be nice.

In what ways do you see Cena as better than Orton? Athletically? Charismatically? I don't necessarily see one as better than the other, just differences.

I swear any time Cena talks on the mic I just want to punch him in the face. Or like noumenon once said, throw a brick at him, lmao. I just HATE Cena, i.e. hate the character more than I have ever hated any wrestling character. The only one who comes close is Rey Mysterio, and if John Morrison continues the way he does, him too. The character simply requires no depth, you go out there and suck up to the audience and say shit like I HAVE NEVER BACKED DOWN AND I NEVER WILL! I could do it. Also, the reason Cena (and Batista) got so over was because of their booking, primarily Cena. He got booked as a 'superman' which got those kids obviously behind him. It worked. Not saying they didn't work at all for their fame.. which kinda ties into my next point. Something people overlook, and something I couldn't rival Cena in as how big he really is, he's fucking ripped, so is Batista (thanks roids). People as jacked as these two are is why people (primarily kids) get behind them. Btw, Cena is a character, like Shawn, Hunter, etc. So the only thing I would improve personally is for him to actually act more like himself, act more like he use to in 04, more bad ass, etc. Otherwise, there's no way he's going to turn heel and no way WWE would have enough balls to do it, like I've said on countless occasions.

Every way, except maybe a more gifted athlete, but we barely see that out of Orton nowadays anyway, so it is obsolete. Cena is solid in that category anyways, when do you ever see him botch a move? Cena made every gimmick, every run he's had work. Orton wasn't even seen as a credible main eventer until LATE 07 (arguable), then he was boring as fuck and came out to almost no reaction, only getting over by beating up HBK (who gets anyone over as a heel). The only time I personally took him seriously as a top guy is when he came back in 08, when he actually changed his character. The tattoos, the walk, the music, they actually gave him a presence and something to acknowledge (can be related to someone like Triple H), hence why he's getting over now, no one gave a fuck about him in 04-05. Orton's psychology is probably loads better than Cena's as well, but for all we know, Cena is told to go out there and no-sell everything. But regardless, Cena is better than Orton, the facts tell it.

Batista's in-ring promo last Friday on SD was even greater than the promo with him and Cena last night. Tista had gotten one of the LOUDEST heel crowd reactions I've heard in a while, it gave me goosebumps for a second and turning Tista heel wasn't difficult to adapt to. He's had a monster gimmick all throughout his career in the E.

As for Cena, IDK what to say.

For Orton, his character makes himself VERY versatile in the WWE. He can go from a GREAT heel to a possibly a GREATER babyface.

Agreed. I liked what Batista did too, the whole spotlight thing is lol.

 

[LadyHotrod]

Holy SHIT, was that ever a terrible Raw.

The Springer segment was so fucking stupid. I know they just wanted to catch the feel of Springer's show but it was so ridiculously lame (like his show) I almost cried, it was so bad.

 

[noumenon]

I tell everyone this. Although I can't stand the Cena character at most time I find it almost impossible to completely dismiss him and shit all over him. I had the opportunity to have a near 2 hour conversation with Cena one day along with my friend after an autograph signing. The guy was so genuinely fucking nice and passionate about the business it was disgusting...lol. And this was amidst the massive Cena hate in 06-07 I believe.
Cena has done his job better than anyone in the company since he's been there and no one can really debate that. He always delivers no matter who they stick him with and like him or not is currently the biggest (I didn't say best) wrestler in the world. I would go as far as to say that his popularity on a global and general name knowledge (as far as non wrestling fans go) nearly tops that of Austin or Rock at this point.

One thing I've come to notice about Orton is that although he's phenomenal in the ring and with in ring psychology he doesn't work well with everyone...in fact...more often than not his style completely clashes with whoever he's facing. Just watch most matches between him and HHH or even Cena for that matter....absolutely horrible. I think the problem with Orton lies in the fact that he in such a great in ring worker can does bring a very technical ring psychology to the picture that he almost goes over the head of people like Cena or HHH. I mean let's face it...Orton's methodical break down of someone in the ring doesn't work well if his opponent is practically no selling everything. And as to what Millz said...no Orton should never be a "baby"face...it would set him back to square one. Orton's character needs ZERO alteration right now except for who to aim his aggression at.

I for one can't stand what they've done to Edge since his return. Just like Orton I think his character shouldn't have changed at all. They simply needed to remove the chicken shit aspect of it and set his sights on Jericho or Sheamus and it would have worked beatifully. There's a reason guys like Morrison and Kofi haven't clicked with the fans yet and been able to become the next top face. No one wants to see another goody goody kiss ass take the reigns as the next top face...they want a BAMF.

 

[LadyHotrod]

I tell everyone this. Although I can't stand the Cena character at most time I find it almost impossible to completely dismiss him and shit all over him. I had the opportunity to have a near 2 hour conversation with Cena one day along with my friend after an autograph signing. The guy was so genuinely fucking nice and passionate about the business it was disgusting...lol. And this was amidst the massive Cena hate in 06-07 I believe.
Cena has done his job better than anyone in the company since he's been there and no one can really debate that. He always delivers no matter who they stick him with and like him or not is currently the biggest (I didn't say best) wrestler in the world. I would go as far as to say that his popularity on a global and general name knowledge (as far as non wrestling fans go) nearly tops that of Austin or Rock at this point.

That's what I have been saying as well. I fucking hate Cena but the man himself has a lot of respect and is one of the nicest dudes. He cares a lot about important things like sick kids and it's cool to see someone like that, as opposed to big headed assholes. He has charisma, he's good on the mic and he gets huge pops.

 

[xFrenchKissx]

It's still a major character plot hole in the fact that Batista just a month ago was all about the title and now suddenly forfeits a chance to be in the chamber in favor of roughing up Bret and facing Cena. Unless it's implied that he's going to be receiving a title shot for his work for Vince I don't know what the whole point of this could be.
I still stand by the fact that HHH would have been the far more interesting and logical choice for Vince's back up in this situation. You want to talk about someone in desperate need of a character tweak and heel turn? Look no further than HHH. He's far more stale than Batista was. Only problem is that he's still a hell of a lot more over. But as I said, that only makes the heel turn better.

I almost hope they leave the plot hole open, as opposed to giving some Blue reasoning as to why this is happening.

I think everyone expected Triple H to be the logical choice and the WWE is trying to 'swerve' on us, kicking themselves in the ass at the same time. Not unheard of. They should know by now that when they make snap decisions for the 'awe' factor, even though we may sit back and go WTF, it isn't the type of one they were going for. Usually our WTF= why is this happening?! when what they are going for is WTF= this is so unexpected and awesome. The result is, after they try this crap we have to sit back and wait for months while they try and sort out what the hell they are going to do about what just happened.

I would disagree as to Triple H's gimmick being stale, for the reason that for the longest time now he has HAD no gimmick. As far as in ring storylines go, he and HBK have basically been cooling their heels and skating by with the DX crap, which was old a LONG time ago. So, any changes Triple H makes is guaranteed to be better than what we have been seeing. I don't care if he goes heel. I don't care if he goes face. Just PLEASE fucking let DX die already.

I swear any time Cena talks on the mic I just want to punch him in the face. Or like noumenon once said, throw a brick at him, lmao. I just HATE Cena, i.e. hate the character more than I have ever hated any wrestling character. The only one who comes close is Rey Mysterio, and if John Morrison continues the way he does, him too. The character simply requires no depth, you go out there and suck up to the audience and say shit like I HAVE NEVER BACKED DOWN AND I NEVER WILL! I could do it. Also, the reason Cena (and Batista) got so over was because of their booking, primarily Cena. He got booked as a 'superman' which got those kids obviously behind him. It worked. Not saying they didn't work at all for their fame.. which kinda ties into my next point. Something people overlook, and something I couldn't rival Cena in as how big he really is, he's fucking ripped, so is Batista (thanks roids). People as jacked as these two are is why people (primarily kids) get behind them. Btw, Cena is a character, like Shawn, Hunter, etc. So the only thing I would improve personally is for him to actually act more like himself, act more like he use to in 04, more bad ass, etc. Otherwise, there's no way he's going to turn heel and no way WWE would have enough balls to do it, like I've said on countless occasions.

Every way, except maybe a more gifted athlete, but we barely see that out of Orton nowadays anyway, so it is obsolete. Cena is solid in that category anyways, when do you ever see him botch a move? Cena made every gimmick, every run he's had work. Orton wasn't even seen as a credible main eventer until LATE 07 (arguable), then he was boring as fuck and came out to almost no reaction, only getting over by beating up HBK (who gets anyone over as a heel). The only time I personally took him seriously as a top guy is when he came back in 08, when he actually changed his character. The tattoos, the walk, the music, they actually gave him a presence and something to acknowledge (can be related to someone like Triple H), hence why he's getting over now, no one gave a fuck about him in 04-05. Orton's psychology is probably loads better than Cena's as well, but for all we know, Cena is told to go out there and no-sell everything. But regardless, Cena is better than Orton, the facts tell it.

Agreed. I liked what Batista did too, the whole spotlight thing is lol.

Just out of curiosity, did you prefer red and yellow hogan or Hollywood Hogan? Rocky or Hollywood Rock?

And this is true. You book someone as undefeatable, no matter who it is, and people will get behind them. Goldberg? But even in doing that it backs both the company and the character into a corner. Once you have built someone up to that status, what do you do with them?

I personally think the muscular thing is way over rated. In some cases, the bulk hinders a performance rather than enhances it.

I think it would be hard to pull off any bad assedness when you are put out there as the epitome of what all good little boys should aspire to be. I really don't believe that Cena will ever be turned heel as long as people actually want to see it. When the day comes when nobody cares, they will do it and by then it won't make any difference. Like nou said above, shock value is way more preferable to necessity.

As far as Cena botching moves, what was that injury he had? But it is pretty hard to botch a move when you have only a handful that you use on a regular basis. And a lot of what you are giving him credit for having made a success of, runs he has had and all, could just as easily be contributed to the fact that he was booked that way. Did the WWE really give us a choice as to whether or not we accept Cena as our 'superman'?

Cena is better than Orton, says the facts? Ok. If Orton had been booked as Cena was, given the same pushes, the same advantages, the same exposure, and vice versa, would your facts still hold up to having Cena being better?

 

[noumenon]

As far as Cena botching moves, what was that injury he had? But it is pretty hard to botch a move when you have only a handful that you use on a regular basis. And a lot of what you are giving him credit for having made a success of, runs he has had and all, could just as easily be contributed to the fact that he was booked that way. Did the WWE really give us a choice as to whether or not we accept Cena as our 'superman'?

Cena is better than Orton, says the facts? Ok. If Orton had been booked as Cena was, given the same pushes, the same advantages, the same exposure, and vice versa, would your facts still hold up to having Cena being better?

Fans chose Cena... WWE didn't just throw him in there with no rhyme or reason. It just got to the point where they were pushing him on people a little too strong, and that for the most part has stopped. Had the fans gotten behind Orton as firmly as they did with Cena from the beginning he would be in the same place as Cena. So to say that WWE shoved Cena down our throats is kind of silly. People chose to get behind Cena, not Orton.

And that was his point I believe. It's all based on the booking, and had Orton been booked as such and to look at such, then yeah...he'd probably come off as "better". I'm not saying Cena is better than Orton...nor do I want to come anywhere near that debate as it's a sore subject around here...lol

 

[Great One]

Hollywood Hogan and Hollywood Rock. Although I love The Rock either way, Hollywood Rock was just plain awesome and underrated.

That was Kennedy botching a hip toss on him I guess.

Yeah, because Orton has been given WAY MORE than Cena which is the reason I'm saying this. Cena worked with nothing and got everything, Orton worked with everything and got nothing is the way I see it. Obviously it's not as black and white as that, due to the differences in their character and what not, I just see Cena in a brighter light for making that wigger shit work to amazing perfection, making the Blue shit he's doing now work, he made the protoype work, etc. As for Randy, one word, EVOLUTION? He couldn't get over against Triple fucking H. I'd bring up Undertaker, but he pretty much got fucked in the ass in that storyline, but some decent heat nonetheless. Mick, Angle, etc. Orton was put against all the top guys, before and even more so than Cena was to get over.

 

[Mike Chaos]

This makes me almost feel bad for Cena. Being basically the stock image of wrestling without any of the upgrades. Prototype if you will

[yt]DIAKnGujUVM[/yt]
:doctor:

 

[noumenon]

I remember reading an interview with Orton around the time of his conversion into the Sociopath character that he always despised his character up until this point. He said everything about it made him cringe, from his attitude down to the music. The whole "voices" thing was initially pitched by him since he said he always wanted to work a darker angle. I remember him even saying something to the effect that he was hoping his new tattoos wouldn't give them a choice but to go through with it...lol.

 

[xFrenchKissx]

I tell everyone this. Although I can't stand the Cena character at most time I find it almost impossible to completely dismiss him and shit all over him. I had the opportunity to have a near 2 hour conversation with Cena one day along with my friend after an autograph signing. The guy was so genuinely fucking nice and passionate about the business it was disgusting...lol. And this was amidst the massive Cena hate in 06-07 I believe.
Cena has done his job better than anyone in the company since he's been there and no one can really debate that. He always delivers no matter who they stick him with and like him or not is currently the biggest (I didn't say best) wrestler in the world. I would go as far as to say that his popularity on a global and general name knowledge (as far as non wrestling fans go) nearly tops that of Austin or Rock at this point.

One thing I've come to notice about Orton is that although he's phenomenal in the ring and with in ring psychology he doesn't work well with everyone...in fact...more often than not his style completely clashes with whoever he's facing. Just watch most matches between him and HHH or even Cena for that matter....absolutely horrible. I think the problem with Orton lies in the fact that he in such a great in ring worker can does bring a very technical ring psychology to the picture that he almost goes over the head of people like Cena or HHH. I mean let's face it...Orton's methodical break down of someone in the ring doesn't work well if his opponent is practically no selling everything. And as to what Millz said...no Orton should never be a "baby"face...it would set him back to square one. Orton's character needs ZERO alteration right now except for who to aim his aggression at.

I for one can't stand what they've done to Edge since his return. Just like Orton I think his character shouldn't have changed at all. They simply needed to remove the chicken shit aspect of it and set his sights on Jericho or Sheamus and it would have worked beatifully. There's a reason guys like Morrison and Kofi haven't clicked with the fans yet and been able to become the next top face. No one wants to see another goody goody kiss ass take the reigns as the next top face...they want a BAMF.

Alright I get the fact that Cena is a good guy IRL. But that isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about the job. Kudos to you Cena for not being a nasty prick!

Anyway, I have no hatred for Cena. Never have. Even in the 'We hate Cena' time periods, I didn't hate him. Which is one of the reasons I am sure that he couldn't make a long heel run work. I hate Edge when he is a heel. I hated Jericho (old school) when he is a heel. I hate Triple H when he is a heel. They key is you have to make the fans LOVE to hate you. I think a lot of the Cena hate can be contributed to people just bucking the trend, not anything he did or didn't do. And a lot of credit for him delivering in matches relates directly to what Great One said earlier, he isn't expected to do anything but go out there, no sell moves, and come out on top. I'll give a nod to those rare exceptions. But still you can not give him tons of credit for doing what nobody else is allowed to do, and that is be the 'superman.'

So, in your words, Orton is too good to be really good? He has to dumb down his performance so that he can stay on the same level with everybody else and make it credible?

Just watch most matches between him and HHH or even Cena for that matter....absolutely horrible.

Really?

I think the problem with Orton lies in the fact that he in such a great in ring worker can does bring a very technical ring psychology to the picture that he almost goes over the head of people like Cena or HHH. I mean let's face it...Orton's methodical break down of someone in the ring doesn't work well if his opponent is practically no selling everything.

Does this not make your own point here? How is Orton expected to have a good match with Cena when his methodical approach is never going to work with a no selling opponent? Bad booking, not Orton or Cena's fault here.

Fans chose Cena... WWE didn't just throw him in there with no rhyme or reason. It just got to the point where they were pushing him on people a little too strong, and that for the most part has stopped. Had the fans gotten behind Orton as firmly as they did with Cena from the beginning he would be in the same place as Cena. So to say that WWE shoved Cena down our throats is kind of silly. People chose to get behind Cena, not Orton.

And that was his point I believe. It's all based on the booking, and had Orton been booked as such and to look at such, then yeah...he'd probably come off as "better". I'm not saying Cena is better than Orton...nor do I want to come anywhere near that debate as it's a sore subject around here...lol

If you are referring to the present day, then yes, fans are still choosing Cena. But if you really believe that he didn't get off to the start he did because he was crammed down our throats than I can just stare and shake my head at you.

And, given the crowds reaction to Orton this week, either Cena is going to have to step his game up to match Ortons, or Orton is going to have to learn to cope with a no selling opponent, because fans are going to want to see this match.

As a side note, I would be exceptionally pleased if Orton made the face turn and then was the one to be instrumental in Cena's heel turn.


As far as Edge's face return, didn't we see something similar with Jericho's last return? When you have something as good as a Edge or a Jericho in top heel form, and people are loving it, forcing them to turn face isn't going to entertain anyone.

 

[Axis]

I think the problem with Orton lies in the fact that he in such a great in ring worker can does bring a very technical ring psychology to the picture that he almost goes over the head of people like Cena or HHH.

Wat.

 

[noumenon]

Well yeah, you just kind of repeated my point there. That's all I'm saying. It's just a shitty match up as far as booking goes that you're pitting a guy who's whole strategy is physically dissecting someone against someone who is going to no sell everything.
I'm not saying that Orton needs to dumb down is performance, simply that it doesn't mesh well with a lot of people...especially guys built to look physically dominant against most...IE Triple H and Cena.

At this point TBH I think in the event of a Cena/Orton match the crowd may very well side with Orton...at least in the "BOO!/YEAH!" effect like they did with HHH/Cena.

Difference with Jericho's last return was that he was gone for YEARS, not 6 months. Edge's injury time flew by...so quickly in fact that he still had lingering heel heat upon his return. Which brings me back to the fact had they done the slow build with his return it may have worked out that much better.