Nation
Guest
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noumenon
Guest
I don't think WWE anticipated this reaction for Orton at all. I for one am fucking shocked by it as well. I mean, look at just a few months back the kind of reaction Cody got for staring Orton down after RKO'ing Dusty. Orton is just something that everyone wants to see right now... a malicious, vicious non-PG character with some grit to him. And if the reaction he is getting proves anything it's that if they do want to turn him face the character doesn't need to change at all...simple who he's facing.
Orton is WWE's best shot at filling the bad ass face hole that has been wide open since Austin left.
And see, was that so hard...making your champion look fucking awesome? That was the most heat the guy has ever gotten.
Why should they be surprised? The crowd has given EVERY indication that they are tired of this kiddie stuff. This just sticks the point home even more.
Hint hint WWE. The older wrestling fans, the dedicated audience, is demanding that you step your game up here. Kids are fickle, and constantly playing to them is not going to get the company anywhere. What once were younger kids in love with their hero Cena, same way a lot of us older fans were with Hogan etc, are getting older now and as they mature so are their preferences in entertainment. Crowd reaction proves this.
These same kids, who are teenagers or close to by now, want to see vicious, angry, hard hitting action. Video games are moving with the times. Movies are moving with the times. It is time that WWE starts catching up here. It is holding on with everything it has to what has brought them to the dance the last few years. But history is repeating itself, and they are in the prime seat to capitalize on that if they just let GO.
Bad guys are where it's at. Heels are always going to be more popular and memorable. Well maybe not always, but in the long run, this is truth.
Austin was great. Rock was great. Not because they were good heels or the best faces. But because they had what it takes to keep people entertained while sitting on the fence and letting the crowd choose what it wanted to see. There hasn't been a lot of that in wrestling in a long time. The fans are vocal about what they want.
I have no doubt Sheamus can draw heat. X-Pac drew heat. But does he have what it takes to be a great wrestler? Who knows. Only time will tell.
noumenon
Guest
Well, to say that the fans have moved on from Cena is just ridiculous. Regardless of the brief stint of Cena hate in 2006 the guy has been the most popular guy in the company for damn near 5-6 years now. And it's not just kids who love Cena, believe me the guy pulls in just about every demographic there is.
The problem isn't solely in the PG ratings, it's simply that WWE hasn't given us many characters to really care about in the past 4 years or so. And just when they find someone who has the potential, they're immediately ripped away and shunned into some shitty comic role. Orton's character has some depth and there's more to him than "I'M DOING IT FOR THE WWE UNIVERSE!" Cena doesn't exactly inspire deep thoughts and thoughts of whether what he's doing is morally right.... in fact he makes a point to tell you it is. On the other hand, Orton is offering up some shades of grey, something few people have done in recent memory in WWE.
Instead of force feeding us Edge as a face I think they may as well just capitalize on what they have with Orton right now as it seems to be the safer bet. People loved Edge's Rated R character towards the end, not this reverted E&C'esque character we've seen lately.
The problem isn't solely in the PG ratings, it's simply that WWE hasn't given us many characters to really care about in the past 4 years or so. And just when they find someone who has the potential, they're immediately ripped away and shunned into some shitty comic role. Orton's character has some depth and there's more to him than "I'M DOING IT FOR THE WWE UNIVERSE!" Cena doesn't exactly inspire deep thoughts and thoughts of whether what he's doing is morally right.... in fact he makes a point to tell you it is. On the other hand, Orton is offering up some shades of grey, something few people have done in recent memory in WWE.
Instead of force feeding us Edge as a face I think they may as well just capitalize on what they have with Orton right now as it seems to be the safer bet. People loved Edge's Rated R character towards the end, not this reverted E&C'esque character we've seen lately.
Co-sign, Randy's lil face reaction with RKO'ing Cody and Sheamus was the best thing that happened on RAW last night. I even marked-out for a moment at the crowd reaction Randy got when he snapped out. And I always thought Randy couldn't ever last as a face. Get Randy on the mic more and he'll definitely fill that bad-ass face void that Stone Cold left.
Hornswoggle and Mae Young was so DAMN predictable, Ted getting the clean win over Kofi caught my attention.
Ok, let me respecify. I'm not saying that Cena is unmarketable or unpopular. Because to deny that would be ludicrous. However, I AM saying that his gimmick is not going to withstand the test of time. In comparing him with Hogan I was pointing out that nothing last forever and that the character is going to have to evolve sooner rather than later. To begin work on it now would be in everyones best interest. If one thing is certain it is change. That goes for everything and everybody. Maybe not even so much as ratings go, as just something different. Like you said. The gray areas have always been the most interesting with the most potential. Keeping everything in the black and white areas blocks you in from being able to make good decisions.
No argument from me on WWEs failure to follow up on good things. But so we can get down to the nitty gritty here and maybe open up some really good discussion, who would you say that WWE really screwed over?
Come on people, you wanted wrestling discussion, contribute!
noumenon
Guest
Yeah but for every generation of kids who grow out of Cena, a new one takes their place. As for right now his character is working across a pretty broad base of fans. There are a lot of adults and teens out there who are Cena fans as well. But of course, just like every other gimmick it will eventually become stale and that's when the heel turn with come into play. Cena's character has been tweaked quite a few times over the years and the minor adjustments have really done a lot for him.
As far as people they screwed over...there's an entire thread for that one...lol.
As far as people they screwed over...there's an entire thread for that one...lol.
THIS right here...
Shit, a possible future John Cena fan is born everyday as babies. Its REGENERATION folks!!!
LKP
Guest
RAW sucked as just as i said it would. Only good thing on raw was Orton at the start and sheamus attacking hhh.
This makes me almost feel bad for Cena. Being basically the stock image of wrestling without any of the upgrades. Prototype if you will
But yeah I can't see how he is ever going to be able to move on from this character and grow or expand in any way. Kind of like certain actors who can never shake a role. I guess that's fine, I'm sure he has accomplished more than he ever thought possible. Because I really can't picture him ever breaking free of the baby face gimmick. I just don't believe he can be a credible heel. I may be wrong, but until I see proof otherwise I am sticking with my opinion.Which is better than having the whole damn show suck. I don't know whether it is worse to be predictable and suck, or to do something nobody expected, and take sucking to a whole new level we never thought possible.
As much as we all want Cena to turn heel ever again its looks hella bleak, Vince really doesn't give a shit what we think of Cena's progression. He's too busy swimming in millions because of Cena's marketability and popularity.This makes me almost feel bad for Cena. Being basically the stock image of wrestling without any of the upgrades. Prototype if you will
Great One
Guest
It's not Cena's fault for the Blue shit he does, it's the WWE's. The guy is more than enough talented to make something of his horrid character, but it's so blatantly obvious he's told almost everything to say, what stupid jokes to use. Maybe not word for word, but what to go out there and do. Look at how long it took them to FINALLY turn Batista. I didn't think it'd ever happen, I was so happy when he finally did and personally I like Batista 10x more now. His promo last night accomplished what it should and I've liked his character thus far. Also, I always said Orton would become bigger than Cena, and we're probably starting to see it now. I think Cena is more talented than Orton, but with Orton's current character he could be really big. It's odd seeing both Edge/Orton turning from the ruthless fucks they've been for the past 4-5 years. Same with Batista.
noumenon
Guest
To say Cena couldn't be a credible heel is just insane. His initial popularity sparked out of his first heel run with the rapper gimmick. He was an amazing heel. It just so happened that his gimmick fed a little too into pop culture and people started eating it up. Cena is nowhere near ready for a heel turn at this point, he's still far too popular and marketable. The problem is that they need to maintain his popularity through until his heel turn.... or else we're going to get Batista.
I for one can't stand Batista's heel turn as it was a direct result of his character being completely stale and it being the necessary move. That should never be the reason for a turn, it should be done for the shock factor, not out of necessity.
And difference between Edge and Orton's face turn. Edge is being forced down out throats as a face where as people are really starting to get behind Orton for their own reasons.
I for one can't stand Batista's heel turn as it was a direct result of his character being completely stale and it being the necessary move. That should never be the reason for a turn, it should be done for the shock factor, not out of necessity.
And difference between Edge and Orton's face turn. Edge is being forced down out throats as a face where as people are really starting to get behind Orton for their own reasons.
Playing devil's advocate here. Did anyone believe when Tripe H was his blue blood character that he would eventually turn into The Game? Did anybody see Austin becoming the icon he turned out to be? Bottom line, is the bottom line. The guys are there to make Vince money, and entertaining us is second. Which doesn't make sense in and of itself because the more we are entertained the more money they make.
In what ways do you think that he can improve upon his character, as it stands now? Given what he has to work with, the guy is majorly over. I'd say that he has done a pretty good job with very limited resources.
I believe that as a character, Batista is much more likable as a heel. I just never liked him as a face. but all the character in the world doesn't excuse the fact that the guy is shitty in the ring and on the mic. Character push can only take somebody so far if they don't have the ability to back it up. Somebody pointed out last night that it was just obvious that he doesn't care anymore and is just biding his time. I agree. Batista's character has always been based on intensity, and I just don't get that from him anymore. Sure, he isn't completely responsible for the angles he is handed either, but a little effort would be nice.
In what ways do you see Cena as better than Orton? Athletically? Charismatically? I don't necessarily see one as better than the other, just differences.
Edit: I don't doubt that Cena, as far as theory goes, couldn't be a credible heel. I just don't know whether he could produce the reaction needed to pull the heat and sustain a heel gimmick, at least intentionally.
Batista's in-ring promo last Friday on SD was even greater than the promo with him and Cena last night. Tista had gotten one of the LOUDEST heel crowd reactions I've heard in a while, it gave me goosebumps for a second and turning Tista heel wasn't difficult to adapt to. He's had a monster gimmick all throughout his career in the E.
As for Cena, IDK what to say.
For Orton, his character makes himself VERY versatile in the WWE. He can go from a GREAT heel to a possibly a GREATER babyface.