new Worlds title rumoured

[pocket]

Had Rock not outshone him with-in his own group then Farooq would've gotten a push of sorts... he certainly had the look and ability of a Champion, and his reign as WCW champ was not a failure at all.... he became the first afro american to hold a mainstream world title AND he held it for 5 months in '92... so how is that a failure???

Lashley did indeed have a huge push which then got holted and would no doubt be a World Champion now had he not left.

Butch Reed should've gone all the way

Others who could've had a shot if booked correctly:

Monty Brown
2 cold Scorpio
Abdulah the Butcher
Zeus
Barbarian
Bad Boy Leroy Brown

granted a few of these will raise a few eyebrows but you wanted a list... i give you one...

 

[JurassicBonez]

So back to the actually discussion.... anyone think that the title they were referring to was the Unified tag titles. They could unify the 4 into 2. Just a sugesstion.

 

[noumenon]

Could be... I mean how long are they going to have people carry around 4 fucking belts. They could just take the easy route and use one of the two sets.

 

[Headfirst For Hardcore]

^I guess it always looks better to have two belts to make it seem like a big deal. I doubt they'll split them up anytime soon, unless it's involved with a Main Event feud.

 

[Dynamo]

@ noumenon, Im not pulling any card or Crying Discrimination. Just talking about an issue. Becoz the issue is race, does that mean we shouldn't discuss it?

Airfixx, Dude, Ive given you a list, a couple, if you don't think those guys were good enough to hold the title then that's another debate. Im saying they are as 'talented' as many other champions. Not saying they were neccesarilly over enough or were big enough draws, but on talent, many could/should have been in with a shout. I'd actually just be interested to know how many black wrestlers have even challenged for the title?

Look, all I'm saying is that imo, the WWE hasn't really shown the support or commitment to pushing talented Black Wrestlers. That may be coincidence, but I personally think that it was, even if it maybe isn't anymore (Time will tell, as MVP and Shelton are definate future champions if all is equal) but it was due to race. Which, isn't a massive suprise, concidering, as you said racism was an ingrained thing, in all institutions. WWE or otherwise.

 

[Airfixx]

Airfixx, Dude, Ive given you a list, a couple, if you don't think those guys were good enough to hold the title then that's another debate.

LOL, no that IS the very debate we're having; The cux of which, let me remind you, is that racism has prevented any black guys holding the WWF/E title.

As I've said, on a number of occasions, until you can suggest a plausible example the debate cannot progress as it just remains in the realms of idle, unsubtstantiated speculation.

Should I beleive that WWE is racist against Britain cos we've never had a WWE champ either? No.... Why because anyone brought through over the years didn't have the complete 'champion package' that Vince was after.

Furthermore, the same reason Davey & Dynamite should never have been world champs should be applied to Shelton Benjamin and if he doesn't make world champ (which I can never see happening) then it's got NOTHING to do with the colour of his skin.

Look, all I'm saying is that imo, the WWE hasn't really shown the support or commitment to pushing talented Black Wrestlers. That may be coincidence, but I personally think that it was, even if it maybe isn't anymore (Time will tell, as MVP and Shelton are definate future champions if all is equal) but it was due to race.

Yeah, but you are expecting me to swallow that opinion without substantiating it. The nearest you've come is listing a bunch of guys, most of which, DIDN'T have anywhere near the amount of talent necessary to become the top guy during their runs and those that did were simply held down by there being someone better (i.e. Hogan).

 

[Dynamo]

Haha. So let me get it str8. You are saying that there has NEVER been a talented enough Black (or British for that matter) Wrestler to hold the title, that was as good or better than the champion/s of their time? So that would mean that EVERY champion, was the best at what he did, at that time?

And as for the 'Champion Package' Vince was after. I agree!!! And part of that package, (at least up untill recently, if not untill this very day) was to be white. Just like for a long while you had to look like a your muscles were doing bicep curles!

N erm, why should Davey or Dynamite (who fuckin revolutionised wrestling) never have been champions? N don't say anything about the drugs because that applied to the whole fuckin locker room and preety much every locker room at that time. And Dynamite was a fuckin massive draw every where in the world!

I'm not expecting you to swallow anything. I have listed guys who have been as talented as past champions. For you to claim that none of the black guys that have been mentioned in this thread, have the 'talent' to be a bonified WWE champ, then thats ludicrous. If you were talking about how well they could draw, or wheter they had the charisma/ mic skills, then we'd have an argument. But just on talent and wrestling skills alone..... really?

Maybe it could be that Vince hadn't seen a Black guy who he 'thought' would be a big enough draw to hold the big strap and be the flagship for his company. But I believe that that is partially due to racial reasons. Be it, ingrained or Overt. Vince has literally managed to mould and make stars. How many wrestlers tell you that mic skills, performance came after. So why, in all the years of WWWF/WWF/WWE has there NEVER been a black champ. If you are telling me that in that time no black man has been good enough, then I don't think your being honest. I aint placing blame, or calling for mass outrage. As I said, back then, it was unfortunately the norm. But to say that it aint a case, is either Closed minded, or naive.

The same logic may well be put to British wrestlers. Now that is a whole new debate!lol.

 

[Airfixx]

Haha. So let me get it str8. You are saying that there has NEVER been a talented enough Black (or British for that matter) Wrestler to hold the title, that was as good or better than the champion/s of their time?

No, what I effectively said was that I wasn't aware of one and then encouraged you to provide an example.

So that would mean that EVERY champion, was the best at what he did, at that time?

No, but better than any black guys on the roster at the time...? Pretty much.

And as for the 'Champion Package' Vince was after. I agree!!! And part of that package, (at least up untill recently, if not untill this very day) was to be white.

Yet you offer nothing to substantiate this opinion.

I'm not expecting you to swallow anything.

Effectively, you ARE if you can't offer any tangiable insight, examples or 'evidence'.

I have listed guys who have been as talented as past champions.

VIRGIL???????????????

Cryme Tyme????????

...With the utmost of respect - Your list was a proverbial fail.

N erm, why should Davey or Dynamite (who fuckin revolutionised wrestling) never have been champions? N don't say anything about the drugs because that applied to the whole fuckin locker room and preety much every locker room at that time. And Dynamite was a fuckin massive draw every where in the world! For you to claim that none of the black guys that have been mentioned in this thread, have the 'talent' to be a bonified WWE champ, then thats ludicrous. If you were talking about how well they could draw, or wheter they had the charisma/ mic skills, then we'd have an argument. But just on talent and wrestling skills alone..... really?

Charisma, mic skills, physical wrestling ability, crowd working, drawing power = Total package that I refer to (I hoped that'd be obvious)... You'd at least need tick the majority of these 'boxes'.

Why were the bulldogs not champ material? Neither could work a mic to save their lives.

Maybe it could be that Vince hadn't seen a Black guy who he 'thought' would be a big enough draw to hold the big strap and be the flagship for his company.

Plausible enough once you consider who were the champs between say 1985 & 2000...

Hogan, Bret, Flair, Savage, HBK, Austin, Rock..... No-one was gonna topple those guys.

Backlund, Diesel, Yokozuna, Warrior, Slaughter... Maybe if you can cite a black guy on the roster during their reigns then it may be worth continuing this discussion (***otherwise see bottom of post).

But I believe that that is partially due to racial reasons. Be it, ingrained or Overt. Vince has literally managed to mould and make stars. How many wrestlers tell you that mic skills, performance came after. So why, in all the years of WWWF/WWF/WWE has there NEVER been a black champ. If you are telling me that in that time no black man has been good enough, then I don't think your being honest.

I said none of the guys (with the exception of MVP) on your list was good enough to become world champ. From there, I'm simply saying I'm not aware of anyone good enough to dethrone the champ of their era.

I aint placing blame, or calling for mass outrage. As I said, back then, it was unfortunately the norm. But to say that it aint a case, is either Closed minded, or naive.

A "case" would usually require some degree of evidence would it not?

The same logic may well be put to British wrestlers. Now that is a whole new debate!lol.

It's a parallel scenario used to illustrate my point and, in context, again, IS relevant to this debate.





(***)I'm done cos I smell 'stalemate'.

 

[Dynamo]

1,2,3. How about the fact that we have never had a black champ to substantiate my opinion. and 4. That would also count as evidence.

5. Cryme tyme and Virgil wern't my examples of champions, they were my examples of the WWE giving them nothing roles, they deemed suitable for the 'black man', and so leaving no expectation or expectancy of anything more than the midcard.

6. The Bulldogs particularly Davey were of an age and era were the whole promo thing was not what they prided themselves on. That shit came with work and persistance. Look at early Foundation and Rockers Promo's. Absolutely terrible. But with time and wrestlers being given the support and backing, (and being told that the need to fuckin improve if they want their push) they improve. Bret became comfortable and champ, Shawn found the right character and became champ. Davey's promo's wern't that bad, but he was given so little mic time, how was he supposed to improve?

7. No one could topple those guys. Why? Apart from Bret imo, none of them were the outright best wrestler on the roster during their reigns. (I'll be honest and say I am biased as a mother fucker. For me, Bret truly was the best there is, the best there was, you know the rest!lol.) Wrestlers like Bad news, Dlo, Farooq, shelton and JYD (4 SURE) were as good 'talent wise' as the champs of their time. Given the right booking, the right backing, they would be among some of the gr8s imo.

To highlight this point, lets take Orton. The guy was pretty much groomed from day 1 to be champion. Was always in the right circles, given the right story and history, hence y we now consider him a legit champ. Now take Shelton. As naturally gifted, sure. Ever given the same booking, the same consistancy, the same comitment. no. Hence y, u now can't see him winning a title. Glass ceiling mate! (Just for the argument, I could apply the same logic to JYD, Farooq and Bad News, who at one time was literally 'THE' heel)

P.S, don't knock Backlund. Guy was great. That storyline with Bret, Revolutionary. (I said I was biased)

8. And I'm saying they were never given a chance to be in the same catergory, so how do you know. Don't tell me that talent wise the likes of all the people already named, plus i don't know, maybe Dvon Dudley, Maven, Booker T (Think he might of held the WCW championship actually, not sure, cant believe he's only been mentioned now. Prime example) were not as 'Talented! i'm talking natural wrestling ability' as some of the champions of this and the previous era. Imo they were good enough and never allowed to see if they could aquire the 'complete package'! No ONE, but NO ONE just 'had it'. (Except maybe the Rock and early flair)

9. See all previous posts!!!!

10. Dito.

(***)I'm done cos I smell 'stalemate'.

I think your right my friend.

I will say that my argument has changed, due to your insights, from being robbed of a black champ that should have been. To, I believe Black wrestlers have never been supported as some of their equally talented white counterparts to be in a position to legitamately claim rights to be in the title arena. So congrats! lol.

It was and is always a pleasure dude!

 

[pocket]

Yeah, but you are expecting me to swallow that opinion without substantiating it. The nearest you've come is listing a bunch of guys, most of which, DIDN'T have anywhere near the amount of talent necessary to become the top guy during their runs and those that did were simply held down by there being someone better (i.e. Hogan).[/QUOTE]

Hogan was awefull... he was 100% look and marketability....

 

[noumenon]

^...as most champions are

 

[pocket]

Could be... I mean how long are they going to have people carry around 4 fucking belts. They could just take the easy route and use one of the two sets.

4 belts make them look a shit load more important as Tag Champs

 

[noumenon]

Just looks cluttered and unecessary IMO

 

[pocket]

Charisma, mic skills, physical wrestling ability, crowd working, drawing power = Total package that I refer to (I hoped that'd be obvious)... You'd at least need tick the majority of these 'boxes'.



If your total package is whats needed to be a champion then Hogan had Zero wrestling ability... and Warrior has even less in ring ability and possibly cut the worst promos in WWF history yet was the biggest star and draw at one time.

 

[pocket]

I think Dynamo hit the nail on the head with his numbered list.... but as for the whole "we've never had a Black champion" unless I'm colour blind, the Rock was the first and Only WWF/WWE Champion.... Simmons and Booker T on WCW

Interesting debate though about why certain guys never made it.. will elaborate this into my next blog on the main site... please check it out!