new Worlds title rumoured

[pocket]

Rock was the first as yes he is Black.... despite the colour blind amongst you...

Ron Simmons should've been given a better push than what he got with than crazy Farooq Assad gimmick.... he was a real star in the making

 

[Headfirst For Hardcore]

O yea, and just to add. Who is the one guy they gave the whole 'street' gimmick to, who got a proper push with it and the world title.

A white guy.

but do you really think if the WWE gave [insert black guy here] the same gimmick and push, would they have the same effect as Cena did? you can't just have a gimmick and expect to get over. you need some sort of skill/charisma to be the biggest superstar in wrestling. Kennedy is a good example of someone who just failed.

Okay, Shelton was a preety big draw from what I heard, as was MVP. The reason I say this is because I didn't really watch wrestling when they sort of came out, yet had heard of them. Im sure MVP was/is to a certain extent, certainly one of the few solid midcarders right now, without a continual serious push/story. But I would be happy to discuss shelton.

Shelton is one of the guys that's gotten popular because of his moves, not his gimmicks. sure, he can flip off a ladder, jump straight to the top and whatever, but can he cut a promo or get the crowd involved? that's what a champion needs. MVP will go somewhere eventually.

the reason why the guys you listed haven't been champion is that they didn't deserve it. you could play the race card, but a great character makes you forget what they look like.

 

[noumenon]

^Saved me a lot of typing.

 

[Dynamo]

Whoa,

Im not 'playing the race card'. If you don't think that some of the guys I named didn't deserve it then fine. We have a differance of opinion. There are many wrestlers over the years who deserved the title and never got it. Thats cool.

I'm just saying that, wether you like it or not, (apart from the rock, who technically wasn't 'black' for all intents and purposes) no Black man has ever had the big strap. I think that is an issue, at least to ask the question Y. N saying that loads of people haven't won it, isn't a fair defence imo. R you telling me that no black wrestler has ever deserved to win the title?

O, and yes, I think that there are plenty of guys, black or white, who could have done the Cena gimmick as weel as Cena has. And I like Cena.

 

[Airfixx]

JYD (One word: Hogan) Koko (Way too small for that Era) & Bad News (Mic skills just weren't there) were never over or talented enough to dethrone Hogan at his peak.

As for Ron Simmons... He didn't fair too well as WCW champ did he?

As previously stated Lashely would have got there if he'd stuck around.

Shelton? Severely lacking in anything other than atheliticism/amateur skills.


As for D-Lo... Always liked him and would have defo liked to have seen him climb the ladder even further. Still can't fathom why they brought him back last year if they had no plans to use him.

 

[Dynamo]

Was anyone?

 

[Airfixx]

Maybe not, but all that does is to further reject any notion of racism in the title pecking order during that era...

Still haven't heard any suggestions of black guys who were denied a deserved WWF/W title reign.



Look at the typical list of the greats who usually get cited as those who deserved yet never held 'the big one'...

Rude, Perfect, Hall (tho' not a fan), DiBiase, Bam Bam, Andre...

I know that booking plays a part, but seriously, how stretched does the list become before black wrestlers start to feature?


I wonder if WWE would have ever pushed Ahmed Johnson towards the WWF title?

 

[Dynamo]

^^ Okay, cool. Very good point. N as Ive said three times now I know there are plenty of wrestlers who have never won it.

So maybe look at it from this point.
1stly to assume there was no racism in that era is pretty naive. It was everywhere in the 80's why not wrestling. Look at the characters they typical give black wrestlers. They all either sing or dance or have come from the vodoo foothills of Africa. I mean come on, surely we can see that that is typecasting in the very least. Up untill and including today, they haven't given any black wrestlers a serious, believable cahracter with a considered push to get them ova. MVP came closest imo, but still uses catchphrases from hip hop songs of 3 years ago.

Surely you can agree that at the very least, the WWE hasn't done justice to its black stars? Or are we happy with talented Black guys lookin like dumb ass negro's jumpin around singing 'bringin tha bringing tha bringin tha hood to youuuuuu!!'

 

[Airfixx]

^^ Okay, cool. Very good point. N as Ive said three times now I know there are plenty of wrestlers who have never won it.

Yeah, and until a plausible example of a black champ that got away is given it's hard to progress the debate any further.

So maybe look at it from this point.
1stly to assume there was no racism in that era is pretty naive. It was everywhere in the 80's why not wrestling.

Unfortunately racism was still ingrained in most, if not all, realms of industry/business. I'm not in denial of that.

Look at the characters they typical give black wrestlers. They all either sing or dance or have come from the vodoo foothills of Africa. I mean come on, surely we can see that that is typecasting in the very least.

Just from the list of guys mentioned thus far, Bad News didn't, D-Lo didn't, Lashley didn't, Rock didn't, Ron Simmons didn't... Ahmed Jonson & Butch Reed didn't (Incidentally due an IC reign at a time when the belt REALLY meant something; BEFORE he went awol that is).

Up untill and including today, they haven't given any black wrestlers a serious, believable chraracter with a considered push to get them ova. MVP came closest imo, but still uses catchphrases from hip hop songs of 3 years ago.

Once he'd dropped the rediculous plastic hat, Farooq ran The Nation, Ahmed was booked like a beast, Lashley was pushed hard as hell from debut (and has said push and stardom to thank for a potentially lucrative MMA deal)...

From another perspective, Eddie Guerrero's lying, cheating and stealing took him all the way to a rather successful WWE title run. So-called racial stereo-types didn't got in the way of his ability.

Surely you can agree that at the very least, the WWE hasn't done justice to its black stars?

Again, I can't think of any specific examples where they have failed to the extent we're talking about...

I generally concur to the theory that if Vince thought he could have made money from you in the main event or indeed as a champ it wouldn't matter if you had green skin and 4 titties.

Or are we happy with talented Black guys lookin like dumb ass negro's jumpin around singing 'bringin tha bringing tha bringin tha hood to 'youuuuuu!!'

....but, There's TWO guys in Cryme Tyme! : P

Seriously tho'... CT have never sat too well with me so I got no counter to that other than to say I'd otherwise have to got back to the late 80s and maybe Koko or Slickster to find such dubious sterotyping in WWE.


Citing R-Truth in any of this is nonsense... He's taken that gimmick from fed to fed... No-one's forced that upon him.

 

[Dynamo]

Okay, so

1. I gave a list of plenty. If you disagree, then fine, but you can't tell me that those guys and a host of others wern't talented enough for the championship. Especially those of the earlier era, when wrestling was the thing you were meant to be good at.

2.Cool

3. Bad news, Big dumb brute. Dlo, lackey for the NATION, Farooq leader of the Nation (Can we say, segregation). Rock isn't Black. And i'll be honest in saying I don't know a great deal about Butch. But it strikes me as odd that the guy disappears the night he was supposedly getting the IC belt.

Did Lashley get the gold? Similar thing happened with Lesnar right. Didn't he get the title?

(O, and while I partially agree, Eddie and the Latino thing is quite different)

4. You can't think of where this happened to this extent. Kumala, Papa Shango, All the nation pretty much, Shelton and his 'Mama', MVP, Virgil, Cryme Tyme, Mabel, dlo?

Basically, I jus think that there have been many talented Black wrestlers who have not been given the fair chance that they deserve. It's like if your a wrestler and your Black, the best you can look forward to is the midcard, and that's if you are really fuckin good.

At least if you are white, you have a chance. Sure, many who deserve it haven't made it either. And in many cases thats a god damn tragedy, i.e, Mr Perfect. (My 2nd favourite wrestler of all time.)

But I believe on past evidence, that a black guy, no matter how good he is, just doesn't fit as a champion for the WWE.

 

[Great One]

MVP is as black as The Rock, lol.

Who's your 1st favorite?

 

[noumenon]

I love how this went from a discussion on them changing the look of the belt to people pulling race cards and crying discrimination..lol

 

[Airfixx]

@ Dynamo:

As I said previously, "until a plausible example of a black champ that got away is given it's hard to progress the debate any further."

...One, just one, PLEASE! : P

"You can't think of where this happened to this extent. Kumala, Papa Shango, All the nation pretty much, Shelton and his 'Mama', MVP, Virgil, Cryme Tyme, Mabel, dlo?"

Sorry, which one of those was a potential world champ? (bearing in mind the "extent" refered to is that "they were purposesly held back from being WWF/E champ", remember.....)

*Kamala was a bonafide ME-er and during his time with WWF had 2 main event runs against Hogan, but as I said previously who exactly was gonna topple him in those days. (He has complained about his paydays tho'.... Then again most did back then. Prob another debate altogether...)

*Papa Shango/Kama/Godfather.... To his own admission, he is a poor wrestler and been very gracious about the way he was treated by WWE & Vince.

*Shelton: With the natural ability he has, you can't tell me they wouldn't love to push him to the moon (they've clearly tried numerous times!), but he just hasn't got the it factor to get over properly.

*The Nation: I dunno how a 'black power' movement could be a) considered reinforcing negative stereo-types nor b) how they would collectively hold the WWF title.

*Mabel/Viscera/Daddy V: He was the main push focus of possibly the worst year in WWF/E history. Him being KOTR is a complete joke! ...And how many revamps does one guy need?

*MVP... Not being made to look foolish, but more importantly, he indeed may one day wear the WWE title so it's entirely premature to be citing him.

*Virgil, granted was given role somewhere between slave & butler, BUT that was enginered to make DiBiase look bad and if truth be known Dibiase prob got more heat for the fact that he was black... Oh, and he was shit.

*Cryme Tyme.... No furture world champs here either. One's a waste of space and the other has only really just started to show anything worth pushing.



As for Butch Reed... Never heard an explaination as to why, but Slickster, in a shoot, confirms the rumoured title reign - He says he Reed went AWOL and that was typical of him. For the record his gimmick was "The Natural" i.e. One which focust on his abilitys.

As for Lashley not getting the same push that Brock did.... It's BECAUSE of what happened with Brock... They'll never push anyone that hard again... Anyway fuck Lashely; all he did was prove them right not give him an express ticket to the moon.... And now where is he? Making a living off of the reputation WWE built for him WITH THE COMPETITION.

 

[pocket]

I wonder if WWE would have ever pushed Ahmed Johnson towards the WWF title?[/QUOTE]


He was a fucking ididot and a very dangerous guy in the ring and hurt many who worked with him.... so no I don't think he'd have ever gotten a push.... I liked him back then, but I was a kid then... he had a cool look!

 

[noumenon]

Yeah, he really was fuckin dangerous. Look on youtube at any of those botch videos or injuries in wrestling...he's in A LOT of them..lol.