What the hell has happened to Randy Orton?

[Kaedon]

he only did the stomp in the latter half of his use of it. he is the man who, while not inventing it, made it the mainstream move it is because he did it so damn perfectly. And no, not everyone can sell a superkick, see Vince McMahon

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

Sorry, HBK did perfect the superkick. Chris Adams was the person who first brought the move to popularity and coined the term superkick in World Class and that is where HBK got the name. Before that it was usually done by oriental stereotype workers and it was known as the savate kick. HBK used to use a sling shot suplex as his finisher for awhile during his singles early days and it was under the recommendation of Scott Hall that he use it as his finisher. Before HBK, only Chris Adams had used it as a finisher and if you compare the two versions, you can tell HBK's is an evolved, perfected version of the maneuver.

 

[Airfixx]

^^^^ Pre-HBK, Haku was using a savat kick as his finisher throughout his WWF run.

Mysterio isn't intimidating, nor does he have to be, he's a face. And Daniel Bryan and Chris Jericho have shown hundreds of times they could break your neck if they wanted to via their matches. I know, I know, it's wrestling and no one cares about that pesky "match" thing, but the fact of the matter is, when they get in the ring, it's believable that they could make anyone tap out, despite their small stature. How do you think HBK got around his lack of size? Sweet Chin Music, which he perfected. No matter how big, if you got hit with that, it was over. if it looked like shit, like Miz's moves do, it would have looked completely fake and his character would have had a hell of a time reaching the heights it did.

....And now the topic jumps to moveset. :roll:

I thought you said size was your latest reactionary issue with The Miz? : pffffffffff:

Btw, as I already pointed out in another thread, Miz's finisher is 'borrowed' from Jericho circa-2002 - It being a signature manouver called 'The Breakdown' - and before you go there, no, Jericho didn't make it look any more devastating!

And Daniel Bryan and Chris Jericho have shown hundreds of times they could break your neck if they wanted to via their matches

:Jeeeeeezus: Yeah, thanks to their fucking booking!

....Or are you telling me it takes a godlike worker to slap on a boston crab or similar having been booked to win by submission?

 

[Montana]

I just don't see how Orton should be the #1 face, from a match quality point of view. Can somebody list me is three best matches from 2010? It's possible I'm forgetting some, but I can't think of any that it would be worth my time to go re-watch.

That a trick question??? The WWE has only had 10 four star matches or better in 2010 according to the observer. Randy Orton was involved in two of those. Here are those 10: Notice the special stip matches in Orange, and the ladder matches in red. Which results in only 4 regular wrestlers matches with a 4 star rating.

3/28/10 Chris Jericho vs. Edge ****
3/28/10 Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels (No Countout, No DQ) ****3/4
4/25/10 John Cena vs. Batista (Last Man Standing) ****1/4
6/20/10 Evan Bourne vs. Chris Jericho ****
7/18/10 Kane vs. Big Show vs. Dolph Ziggler vs. Matt Hardy vs. Christian vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Kofi Kingston vs. Cody Rhodes (Ladder) ****
7/18/10 Rey Mysterio vs. Jack Swagger ****
7/18/10 The Miz vs. Evan Bourne vs. Randy Orton vs. Mark Henry vs. Chris Jericho vs. Edge vs. Ted DiBiase vs. John Morrison ****
7/19/10 Randy Orton vs. Chris Jericho vs. Edge ****
12/19/10 John Morrison vs. Sheamus (Ladder) ****
12/19/10 Alberto Del Rio vs. Edge vs. Kane vs. Rey Mysterio (TLC) ****1/4


Now is Randy Orton a great mat wrestler?? No but he serviceable. On certain days he's better than Cena, others he's not. I feel like if the WWE said to go out there and wrestle great match he could do it. The problem is they haven't booked him to do that yet. For example see Sheamus vs. Orton at SummerSlam. Blame WWE not Orton.

 

[Axis]

That a trick question??? The WWE has only had 10 four star matches or better in 2010 according to the observer. Randy Orton was involved in two of those. Here are those 10: Notice the special stip matches in Orange, and the ladder matches in red. Which results in only 4 regular wrestlers matches with a 4 star rating.

3/28/10 Chris Jericho vs. Edge ****
3/28/10 Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels (No Countout, No DQ) ****3/4
4/25/10 John Cena vs. Batista (Last Man Standing) ****1/4
6/20/10 Evan Bourne vs. Chris Jericho ****
7/18/10 Kane vs. Big Show vs. Dolph Ziggler vs. Matt Hardy vs. Christian vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Kofi Kingston vs. Cody Rhodes (Ladder) ****
7/18/10 Rey Mysterio vs. Jack Swagger ****
7/18/10 The Miz vs. Evan Bourne vs. Randy Orton vs. Mark Henry vs. Chris Jericho vs. Edge vs. Ted DiBiase vs. John Morrison ****
7/19/10 Randy Orton vs. Chris Jericho vs. Edge ****
12/19/10 John Morrison vs. Sheamus (Ladder) ****
12/19/10 Alberto Del Rio vs. Edge vs. Kane vs. Rey Mysterio (TLC) ****1/4


Now is Randy Orton a great mat wrestler?? No but he serviceable. On certain days he's better than Cena, others he's not. I feel like if the WWE said to go out there and wrestle great match he could do it. The problem is they haven't booked him to do that yet. For example see Sheamus vs. Orton at SummerSlam. Blame WWE not Orton.

Holy shit, those ratings are laughable. AAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

[Hometown Kid]

That Orton/Jericho/Edge match wasn't worth two stars, let alone four, and MITB was hardly due to Orton being any good.

Orton: Legitimately one of the worst overall wrestlers (wrestling + promo) on the WWE roster. Even DH Smith's better, and that's a scary thought for any performer.

As far as his booking, like Airfixx said, hardly an isolated case. Main event heels don't win clean in the company, unless they're facing someone lower on the totem pole. It's completely ridiculous imo, but that's just their way of things. It doesn't matter much to me, someone who's a trainwreck on promos and who can barely even work a match, let alone a good one will suck no matter who he jobs to.

Where are all the people that tried to say he was some kind of legendary worker before? He really hasn't changed at all since then... :/

 

[straight_edge76]

MITB matches are always good, multiman ladder matches always get good ratings, it's hard to find a truely bad one. Morrison/Sheamus isn't as good as some make it out to be and Jericho/Edge/Orton was great as a TV match, but idk if it would be considered as great if it was a PPV main event tbh.

For the record, I loved the Jericho/Borne match. One of my favorite TV matches of 2010 honestly.

 

[Kaedon]

^^^^ Pre-HBK, Haku was using a savat kick as his finisher throughout his WWF run.



....And now the topic jumps to moveset. :roll:

I thought you said size was your latest reactionary issue with The Miz? : pffffffffff:

Btw, as I already pointed out in another thread, Miz's finisher is 'borrowed' from Jericho circa-2002 - It being a signature manouver called 'The Breakdown' - and before you go there, no, Jericho didn't make it look any more devastating!




:Jeeeeeezus: Yeah, thanks to their fucking booking!

....Or are you telling me it takes a godlike worker to slap on a boston crab or similar having been booked to win by submission?

It has nothing to do with "booking". When you walk out to the ring and step in between the ropes, it's up to you to do it, not the bookers. They aren't pulling strings, they aren't telling these guys what to do. They get in there and do what their characters would do in a one on one or whatever kind of situation.

Hulk Hogan was billed back in the day to be almost 7 ft tall, to be the baddest man in the world, and all that shit. He wasn't. But when he came out there he made you BELIEVE IT. Not only because of his actions in the ring, but his actions on the way to the ring. He looked the part. He was beating people with a legdrop, not exactly an intimidating thing, but that superman comeback (started by guys like Chief Jay Strongbow) made him look like he was the shit.

Miz doesn't have any of that. He looks, walks, and talks like a little squirrely little fuck who can't beat anyone. That's who he is.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

It has nothing to do with "booking". When you walk out to the ring and step in between the ropes, it's up to you to do it, not the bookers. They aren't pulling strings, they aren't telling these guys what to do. They get in there and do what their characters would do in a one on one or whatever kind of situation.

Hulk Hogan was billed back in the day to be almost 7 ft tall, to be the baddest man in the world, and all that shit. He wasn't. But when he came out there he made you BELIEVE IT. Not only because of his actions in the ring, but his actions on the way to the ring. He looked the part. He was beating people with a legdrop, not exactly an intimidating thing, but that superman comeback (started by guys like Chief Jay Strongbow) made him look like he was the shit.

Miz doesn't have any of that. He looks, walks, and talks like a little squirrely little fuck who can't beat anyone. That's who he is.

Yeah, he looks like someone who can't beat anyone, but he DOES beat people! That's what the fuck The Miz is! That's what Rey Mysterio always has been (would ANYONE believe Rey could defeat Big Show in a fucking match if it were real!?)... that's what a LOT of guys in the history of wrestling are/were/will be.

 

[Montana]

Holy shit, those ratings are laughable. AAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

It is what it is. That was reportedly the best of 2010. I think you could throw a couple of Danielson's ppv matches in there, but they weren't rated 4 stars. In reality the WWE isn't in the business of putting on great 5 star matches.

That Orton/Jericho/Edge match wasn't worth two stars, let alone four, and MITB was hardly due to Orton being any good.

Orton: Legitimately one of the worst overall wrestlers (wrestling + promo) on the WWE roster. Even DH Smith's better, and that's a scary thought for any performer.

It's a little late now to complain about Randy Orton's promos and wrestling skills because he's practically been main eventing for the past 6 years or so. With the WWE rosters in the shambles that it's in now, they need an established main eventer, like Randy Orton whom they've been building up the past 7 years more than ever. He is clearly not the worst wrestler, nor is he the worst on promos on the roster. Look at the active Raw Roster, How many of those guys have been in the WWE 5-6 years?? They WWE has went through a complete overhaul of talent, and you are saying one of the few guys that has been prepped for stardom by legends like Foley, Rock, Undertaker, HHH, HBK, and so on; should now just be thrown to the mid card??? That makes zero sense to me. Since the WWE has invested so much time and effort into Orton, use his established character and gimmick to help get this new crop of talent over. Which is what he did for Miz. I'm sure A LOT of wrestlers in the past would want pissed and moaned about that.

On top of Randy Orton being in the prime of his career. This is a guy who isn't injury prone like a Mysterio or Kennedy.

I just don't get the argument that he is boring. Yeah, he wrestlers a slower style, but more psychology. He's gets huge pops. He wrestles a good match, when he needs to. He's over for a reason.

 

[Montana]

Orton is just boring to me. Never put him in a stand off with anyone (like they did at the Royal Rumble with Cena), he throws the ugliest punches, he punches down on every opponent like they're Rey Mysterio. Never liked him as a champion, he's more interesting when he's in the hunt. And this slithering bullshit and Michael Cole getting an orgasm everytime he says the Viper strikes makes me want to switch the channel.

Note I haven't fully watched RAW since the summer time.

what was wrong with the stand off? Ugly Punches??? Come on, thats just getting nit picky.

The slithering thing is pretty lame, but i the Viper gimmick worked, and the fans got behind it. They chant "RKO" so must be working.


If not Orton, who should be the #2 face??? Morrison, Danielson, Santino, R-Truth??? Morrison and Danielson are great in the ring, but lack character and promo skills. Santino and R Truth have the promo skills, but are practically a joke at this point. Like or not, your stuck with Orton; unless the WWE turns a major heel a face. (Or HHH returns to dominant, which is likely)

 

[Axis]

It is what it is. That was reportedly the best of 2010.

And those are wrong. Simple as that. The list starts giving fucking Jericho vs Edge four stars. You should have stopped reading at that.

 

[Kaedon]

Yeah, he looks like someone who can't beat anyone, but he DOES beat people! That's what the fuck The Miz is! That's what Rey Mysterio always has been (would ANYONE believe Rey could defeat Big Show in a fucking match if it were real!?)... that's what a LOT of guys in the history of wrestling are/were/will be.

Rey is a loveable underdog, not some jobber who was pushed just because he was in the right place at the right time. The Miz is not a loveable underdog and could never carry himself like one.

 

[Airfixx]

^^^^So fucking what???

If you can accept Rey as a lovable underdog babyface, why not Miz as the annoying against-all-odds heel?

Why? ...Cos when it comes to this subject you're full of shit .


Miz got pushed cos of the reactions he was getting (i.e. as good as or better than anyone in the company)... I assume that by "the right time" you mean there's was no-one getting better reactions than him to get pushed instead at the time.... Well, how 'radical'! :roll:

It has nothing to do with "booking". When you walk out to the ring and step in between the ropes, it's up to you to do it, not the bookers. They aren't pulling strings, they aren't telling these guys what to do. They get in there and do what their characters would do in a one on one or whatever kind of situation.

Rah, rah, rah.... You were originally complaining about the fact that he hadn't beat Orton clean. THAT is down to booking. Try and keep your focus.

Hulk Hogan was billed back in the day to be almost 7 ft tall, to be the baddest man in the world, and all that shit. He wasn't. But when he came out there he made you BELIEVE IT. Not only because of his actions in the ring, but his actions on the way to the ring. He looked the part. He was beating people with a legdrop, not exactly an intimidating thing, but that superman comeback (started by guys like Chief Jay Strongbow) made him look like he was the shit.

...The point of all that was?


:yaaaaaaaaaawn:

First it was his size, then it was the lack of clean finishes to his matches, then his move-set and now it's his size again and the fact that he's not a 7ft babyface... Stick to the topic or don't bother replying. ----->

 

[straight_edge76]

If not Orton, who should be the #2 face??? Morrison, Danielson, Santino, R-Truth??? Morrison and Danielson are great in the ring, but lack character and promo skills. Santino and R Truth have the promo skills, but are practically a joke at this point. Like or not, your stuck with Orton; unless the WWE turns a major heel a face. (Or HHH returns to dominant, which is likely)

This I agree with. Granted, I am not as big an Orton supporter as I once was, if you think about it there isn't anyone quite ready to be a #2 face of the company. You could make a case for Taker or Rey, but they are both on the tail end of their carrer. There are guys like Morrison and Bryan who, are over as faces dont get me wrong but they dont (at this point atleast) look like top of the company type guys. There is a possibility that HHH could be brought back up as a dominant face or if a heel like a Jack Swagger gets turned and pushed effectively he could take the role eventually. I could also see someone like Kofi eventually being that guy. But for now "RKO" is all they have.