Was Christian Return a Total waist?

[The Rated R CMStar]

Oh so because JR tells you he's good, he's good?

And because you say he's bad, he's bad?

JR has said many guys have had "potential" and all have fallen FLAT on their face. JR thought Dr Death was the next Austin, not even fucking close. But more to the point, just because JR says a guy is good doesnt mean shit. Yeah, he knows the business but he isnt the end all be all.

You missed the point. What I said is I like Jack Swagger, and when taking in consideration other people's opinion, I'd rather take JR's, who knows the business, than Kaedon's.

They are, or on the case of the old guys, they USED to be.

Give me a break. Matt Hardy and Finlay will be called many things, but charismatic isn't one of them.

He's got no character

Enough to get people to boo him in 6 months.

unproven mic skills

Already better than some of the people in the roster and enough to get people to boo him.

and having Christian JOB TO HIM is a waste of time and talent.

Christian will never be a top guy, especially not know in his career. Jack Swagger more than likely will.

 

[Kaedon]

And because you say he's bad, he's bad?

No, because I have given my concrete reasons why I think he sucks, doeshe suck.

You missed the point. What I said is I like Jack Swagger, and when taking in consideration other people's opinion, I'd rather take JR's, who knows the business, than Kaedon's.

No, I got the point "What JR says is good, is good"

Give me a break. Matt Hardy and Finlay will be called many things, but charismatic isn't one of them.

Matt Hardy was the promo man for the Hardys and Finlay used to be way more charismatic when he was younger.

Enough to get people to boo him in 6 months.

Oh, so because people boo you, you have a character? I didnt know that....

Already better than some of the people in the roster and enough to get people to boo him.

Oh, and because people boo you, you have mic skills too? Does that mean Snitsky had mic skills? How about Mike Knox? Yeah, people booing you = mic skills.

Christian will never be a top guy, especially not know in his career. Jack Swagger more than likely will.

And youre basing this off of what? "People boo him and JR thinks he's good" please tell me what differentiates him from everyone else in the company who is a young, cocky heel? He has blonde hair? Oooooooo. Or he wears a singlet!? WOW WHAT AN AWESOME CHARACTER! Whats your character again? Ahh my character is a guy who wears long black tights. YOU WILL MAIN EVENT ONE DAY!!! No, the guy is the shits. He's unproven, and you cant tell me what his character is, outside of "well people boo him so he has one" Yeah I dont think so.

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

Please first off, tell me how you judge Swagger's character, seeing how you have admitted you haven't seen much of Swagger?

No, I got the point "What JR says is good, is good"

Well, I just explained it to you.

Oh, so because people boo you, you have a character? I didnt know that....

No, but you just seem to ignore Swagger's character. He is an amateur wrestler who was an All American, cocky and considers he is worthy of being the franchise man of the company.

Like i said, you might not find it much, because apparenlty you don't like it, but it is enough for people to boo him.

Oh, and because people boo you, you have mic skills too? Does that mean Snitsky had mic skills? How about Mike Knox? Yeah, people booing you = mic skills.

No, but great way of twisting the words. You might not think he has enough mic skills, but fans find them enough to boo him.

Lol at the Snitsky example. Try someone who at least gets a reaction.

 

[Chuck Taylor's Grenade]

Mic skills aren't necessary for generating boos. They help but some people get heat just through their actions. Examples-Kane, Undertaker, and Brock Lesnar all in their first few months.

 

[Kaedon]

Please first off, tell me how you judge Swagger's character, seeing how you have admitted you haven't seen much of Swagger?

Ive seen him enough to know he's a generic cocky heel with no depth to him.

No, but you just seem to ignore Swagger's character. He is an amateur wrestler who was an All American, cocky and considers he is worthy of being the franchise man of the company.

Yeah god knows thats original. God knows there is NO ONE who is like that in the WWE. Oh wait, Randy Orton, MVP (when he was a heel), Kennedy, Ted Dibiasie Jr. Chris Jericho, heel HHH, Edge, heel Cena, Brian Kendrick, Shelton Benjamin, JBL, The Miz, John Morrison. The difference is, those guys, well most of them, have more to their "CHARACTER" than this shmuck.

Like i said, you might not find it much, because apparenlty you don't like it, but it is enough for people to boo him. No, but great way of twisting the words. You might not think he has enough mic skills, but fans find them enough to boo him.

Once again I ask, just because the crowd boos you means you have mic skills and a character?

Lol at the Snitsky example. Try someone who at least gets a reaction.

He did get a reaction, when he was put in situations where he would be bood, and depending on the opponent as well, which is what they WWE are doing with Swagger because hes got fuck all for mic skills

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

Once again I ask, just because the crowd boos you means you have mic skills and a character?

And once again I say, he has enough of them to get people to care and boo him.

He did get a reaction, when he was put in situations where he would be bood, and depending on the opponent as well, which is what they WWE are doing with Swagger because hes got fuck all for mic skills

yeah, like in 2007, when paired with Cena, HBK, HHH. God knows he got the hell booed out of him.

Yeah god knows thats original. God knows there is NO ONE who is like that in the WWE. Oh wait, Randy Orton, MVP (when he was a heel), Kennedy, Ted Dibiasie Jr. Chris Jericho, heel HHH, Edge, heel Cena, Brian Kendrick, Shelton Benjamin, JBL, The Miz, John Morrison. The difference is, those guys, well most of them, have more to their "CHARACTER" than this shmuck.

First, The Miz and John Morrison have never expressed themselves on being the face of a franchise. Neither has The Brian Kendrick.

Second, yeah, well done ignoring the other half of his character which is what mostly sets him apart.

 

[Axis]

Swagger doesn't need mic skills because he has enough in-ring charisma to make up for it. I like the character angle to him that he actually almost seems insecure about his mic skills; he wants to be the all-around package, but he keeps being made fun of his lisp. So to retaliate, he just fucks up his opponents in the ring. He's the guy who wants to be the franchise, but knows that he can't be, so he takes out his frustration in what he should be content with being--a fantastic amateur wrestler.

You have to look into him more than just "cocky heel" to fully get him, I think. He's green and inexperienced and that really plays into his matches well. Like this past week in his match with Christian; every time Swagger would get an advantage, Christian would do some sort of high-flying move to gain room. But Swagger was too inexperienced and/or stubborn to adapt, so Christian was able to out-speed him every time. That really puts over the fact that (1) Christian is crafty and (2) Swagger's pure wrestling/grappling abilities can STILL outlast his opponents.

 

[Kaedon]

And once again I say, he has enough of them to get people to care and boo him.

Its a yes or no question that you cant answer.

yeah, like in 2007, when paired with Cena, HBK, HHH. God knows he got the hell booed out of him.

He got bood then as much as Swagger is now, but he got a lot of heat working with Kane too.

First, The Miz and John Morrison have never expressed themselves on being the face of a franchise. Neither has The Brian Kendrick.

Actually they all have said they are the best in the WWE, which in and of itself is generic, kinda like Jack Swagger.

Second, yeah, well done ignoring the other half of his character which is what mostly sets him apart.

"Im a wrestler" is not a character.

Swagger doesn't need mic skills because he has enough in-ring charisma to make up for it. I like the character angle to him that he actually almost seems insecure about his mic skills; he wants to be the all-around package, but he keeps being made fun of his lisp. So to retaliate, he just fucks up his opponents in the ring. He's the guy who wants to be the franchise, but knows that he can't be, so he takes out his frustration in what he should be content with being--a fantastic amateur wrestler.

You have to look into him more than just "cocky heel" to fully get him, I think. He's green and inexperienced and that really plays into his matches well. Like this past week in his match with Christian; every time Swagger would get an advantage, Christian would do some sort of high-flying move to gain room. But Swagger was too inexperienced and/or stubborn to adapt, so Christian was able to out-speed him every time. That really puts over the fact that (1) Christian is crafty and (2) Swagger's pure wrestling/grappling abilities can STILL outlast his opponents.

Sounds like "The Pug" Alex Porteau only Swagger is winning and Alex didnt. "Im a wrestler who wins" is NOT a character.

 

[Axis]

You're right, it's not. However that's not what I said, so it all works out

 

[Moonlight Drive]

Actually they all have said they are the best in the WWE, which in and of itself is generic, kinda like Jack Swagger.

What? Mizorrison are far from generic, cocky heels. You mustn't have ever watched the Dirt Sheet.

 

[Kaedon]

You're right, it's not. However that's not what I said, so it all works out

Actually it IS what you said. You said he's a greenhorn who finds a way to win using his skill. Thats not a character, thats being booked to win.

What? Mizorrison are far from generic, cocky heels. You mustn't have ever watched the Dirt Sheet.

I meant when that is your only characteristic, its generic. For the Miz and Morrison, its not, thats why they are, as characters, great.

 

[Axis]

Actually it IS what you said. You said he's a greenhorn who finds a way to win using his skill. Thats not a character, thats being booked to win.

You missed the frustration part that I mentioned. He wants to be number one guy, but he knows he can't be. If you notice in his matches, he starts out cocky, but then realizes that he can't be both cocky AND victorious, so he gets really, really aggressive. Newbie is not a character. However a champion that is in over his head and gets frustrated with his lack of all-aroundness IS a character. He's a frustrated young guy who refuses to show his frustration.

He was cocky to Christian two weeks ago and lost. He was cocky to Finlay and Christian last week and lost. He was cocky to Christian at first this week, but then he snapped out of it and went balls to the wall while leaving behind his want to fill the "sports entertainment" aspect of being a champion, and thus won.

When he tries to be "entertaining" he doesn't win. But when he stops trying to be entertaining and DOES win, he isn't fulfilling what he wants to be. That frustration is leaving holes in his "dominating heel" role, and thus allowing different contenders to step in and take advantage.

Sure, he's complex. He's not simply a deadman, a pirate, a boogeyman, or a rich guy. But that's what makes the industry great; you have simple characters for the Epsilons to understand, and complex characters for the Alphas to understand.

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

I'm through with this argument.

You don't like Jack Swagger we get it. But please, don't try to insult our intelligence and try to pass your opinion as facts.

Oh also, it isn't a yes or no question.

I explained Swagger's character in response of you saying he has no character. I explained it again and again you say he has no character, so I say that his character is enough to get people to boo him.

And you come up with "so having people boo you means you have a character?"

The question is completely out of place and twisting the sense and words of the statement

 

[Double J]

When it's all said and done what it really comes down too is Vince likes Swagger and doesn't believe Christian can be a star. Or could be said Swagger= Big muscled up guy, Christian=Smaller wrestler with good mic skills.

As far as Swagger having a character, while I understand where you're coming from CMStar, I don't think he really has one. "The All-American American" name has never really been explained (to my knowledge) and to be honest Swagger really just looks like a generic rookie wrestler.

He has the simple finishing move, the singlet, the nickname that really doesn't say anything about his 'character', and really no trademark moves.

Is he a good wrestler? Yeah he seems to be a really good technical wrestler, but that is his character. The days of gimmicks ruling the ring is over. There's only a handfull of wrestlers left who actually have gimmicks. Most wrestlers today in the WWE just have nicknames that seem more like Boxing names than gimmicks.


Sorry not sure where I was going with that now.....back to Swagger. Most gimmicks are obvious to people on what they are. CMStar I agree with you say about him to an extent but I doubt all that is his character mainly because the announcers never really bring those points up to help enforce that idea in peoples heads. Right now Swagger is just the new Kurt Angle without the gold medal gimmick, a cocky new guy who's a good amatuer wrestler and one day with experience he could be great, but I still think he got the title a little too soon.

It makes no sense to him having the title, out of all the new guys in ECW yeah he would be the best one to have the belt but explain to me how Swagger gets the belt and has yet had to face Mark Henry, a guy everyone knows Swagger wouldn't be able to beat because I doubt he could man handle him the way he has his other opponents.

To be honest I woud of rathered Christian stay in TNA. I know that even though he's on the C show right now he's still making more money than he would/did in TNA, but I doubt they will ever really use him. Hopefully I'm wrong, but he may get a title run on Smackdown eventually but I doubt it'll go much father than that and he'll end up like Rey Mysterio just doing matches/story lines here and there.

 

[Kaedon]

You missed the frustration part that I mentioned. He wants to be number one guy, but he knows he can't be. If you notice in his matches, he starts out cocky, but then realizes that he can't be both cocky AND victorious, so he gets really, really aggressive. Newbie is not a character. However a champion that is in over his head and gets frustrated with his lack of all-aroundness IS a character. He's a frustrated young guy who refuses to show his frustration.

He was cocky to Christian two weeks ago and lost. He was cocky to Finlay and Christian last week and lost. He was cocky to Christian at first this week, but then he snapped out of it and went balls to the wall while leaving behind his want to fill the "sports entertainment" aspect of being a champion, and thus won.

When he tries to be "entertaining" he doesn't win. But when he stops trying to be entertaining and DOES win, he isn't fulfilling what he wants to be. That frustration is leaving holes in his "dominating heel" role, and thus allowing different contenders to step in and take advantage.

Sure, he's complex. He's not simply a deadman, a pirate, a boogeyman, or a rich guy. But that's what makes the industry great; you have simple characters for the Epsilons to understand, and complex characters for the Alphas to understand.

Your confushing a gimmick with a character in that last statement. No, he's not a pirate or a deadman, but when he comes out and cuts a promo, I am having a hard time believing he is "im character" because an "All American American" doesnt have something to say as opposed to the clusterfuck promos of an Ultimate Warrior, the fun insanity of The Rock, or the understated megalomaniac/blame everyone else character of Edge.

What would the All American American say to The Rock who would call him a popcorn fart? To Edge who would call him a nobody on the screen of wrestling, or the Warrior who would foam at the mouth and yell incoherently about the moon and space aliens? Not a god damn thing.

And what you call an "in ring character" isnt an in ring character, thats a guy like Ricky Steamboat telling him what to do, BOOKING him to win. Its no different than the road warriors coming out and running through people. Its being booked into a character instead of making one or embracing one for your own.

I'm through with this argument.

Im done, buuuuuuut....

You don't like Jack Swagger we get it. But please, don't try to insult our intelligence and try to pass your opinion as facts.

Im not, Im challenging you to come up with something other than "JR says he's good and people boo him therefore he has a great promo and character" and you cant do it.

Oh also, it isn't a yes or no question


I explained Swagger's character in response of you saying he has no character. I explained it again and again you say he has no character, so I say that his character is enough to get people to boo him.

And you come up with "so having people boo you means you have a character?"

The question is completely out of place and twisting the sense and words of the statement

Actually it is a yes or a no question, you just dont want to answer it because you now how it shreds your "he has a character because people boo him" argument. And after I refute your "character" argument, you come back with NOTHING.


So I ask, are you still "done with this argument"