OOC The Out Of Character Thread
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Oh... Well then he's fired.Yes, He hating on you through the entire post!
Bruh. You're neither quoted or @'d and am I really a guy to subtweet? It's exclusively about Frosty's "no arguments" idea, neither you nor anyone else but Frosty is involved. Relaxez-vous.
grrrrrrrr wud u stahp doodYes, He hating on you through the entire post!
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I was asking because if it's not about me then I have no interest in reading it.
Well jesus what a mess this was that I missed entirely because I closed the forum to make Yellow's titantron (I then got distracted and binged nigahiga but yknow... not the point xD).
But never fear, a guy people like (maybe? please? THIS IS MY ONE ACCOMPLISHMENT LET ME HAVE THIS don't you dare try, Reag) is here to throw $0.02 (subtle gimmick infringement @Gambino) at the problem!
I'm about to say a lot of things and they're going in a spoiler to not take up too much space. If you're interested in this important problem (and think I might have a sensible idea or two on it), or you're Sam or Frosty please read them whenever you have a spare couple of minutes. Shout out to @AfricanScatMahn who needs to learn to read lots of words.
Really, we have to find a balance between putting on matches that are fun to play for everyone, and playing for the satisfaction of winning that makes as many people as possible happy - maybe the bans put in today will help that but only time and healthy debate will tell. Really sorry for such a long post (and for bringing back up an issue that seemed to be kinda finished with) but I felt like a lot of important things on both sides hadn't been said. Not going to TL;DR it because I'd at least like the people it's about (and ideally as many others as possible) to read it in full whenever they get a chance. Thanks y'all, love to everyone. There are no inherently bad people in this league, please try not to act like it you guys. <3
But never fear, a guy people like (maybe? please? THIS IS MY ONE ACCOMPLISHMENT LET ME HAVE THIS don't you dare try, Reag) is here to throw $0.02 (subtle gimmick infringement @Gambino) at the problem!
I understand this isn't necessarily going to be popular but I think this match is pretty much fine. There are a couple of borderline things but overall it isn't too bad and looks worse because @Sam?! really isn't playing well at all. Will go into more detail with this in a sec.
To be honest, Frosty, I feel like you've been very defensive and slightly childish about this issue and it hasn't helped matters. I get that it's frustrating and that it doesn't look like people are grateful for the effort you put in as GM (which is great, by the way), but this issue wasn't handled maturely. Also, it was disrespectful and power-abusing to reply to a serious, thought out suggestion with just "No", without justification.
Reversing stomps is stupid for the same reason jumping off the tope rope when someone has a finisher is stupid. If that hurts you in matches then that's not the rules' fault, that's the player's (or, at a stretch, the game's). I have no issue with the ban but tbh that should never be a problem. Wait for a better time to reverse.
I'm about to say a lot of things and they're going in a spoiler to not take up too much space. If you're interested in this important problem (and think I might have a sensible idea or two on it), or you're Sam or Frosty please read them whenever you have a spare couple of minutes. Shout out to @AfricanScatMahn who needs to learn to read lots of words
.Firstly, I feel like a lot of the ferocity of this argument comes out of @Sam?! and @TheFrostyBlur being opposed to one another on philosophies and both having been GM and thinking they do/did the better job (and also cos Frosty beat Sam in a match). From what I'm reading (please, please correct me if I'm wrong) Sam thinks that the priority should be putting on good matches and Frosty thinks the priority should be competing with each other at the game. Both want people to have fun but think that their way is how it comes about. Both of these ideas manifest(ed) themselves in their GM reigns.
When Sam was GM in 2K15, there was such a gulf in skill between the good players (@Harrison, @Gambino etc, and that Erron Black guy that never made it over here (and also rarely promo'd)) and the bad ones (the newer members and very, very much me) was so vast that matches would regularly end in 2-3 minutes without the loser hitting a move (or hitting very few). Another reason for that was the fact that the old kickout meter was so impossible online that matches were won (basically without exception) with the first finisher (a far, far cry from today). Also, 2k15 having no reversal restriction meant that matches between good players would just be constant reversal-fests that weren't exactly interesting either, and would sometimes only end with glitchy/catch finishers.
This made the league boring because matches were short, uncompetitive and boring to play and watch. So Sam wrote an excellent thread on how to put on good matches, and recommended that everyone should hit at least one OMG moment before going for a finisher and pin and gave some other ideas about how to pad the runtime, which majorly improved match quality and gave poorer players the chance to get some moves in in that extra time. This meant that the end period of the 2k15 league was much better except for the clusterfuck that was the world title picture after Hawk dropped the belt and a small number of members (two things he didn't really control). So when he's angry about such a short, unentertaining match happening between him and Frosty I totally, totally get why. But that isn't what usually happens in 2k16 because nearly everyone can kick out of multiple finishers in a match now and there's less of a skill difference in members than there was so short matches are usually a problem of the past.
Just to give Frosty his well deserved due as a GM - he overcame possibly the biggest obstacle a league GM has ever faced which is the closing down of the website where the league was hosted. He convinced the Admin(s) of this site to give the leagues from another site an entire section, and support them, and then was a big part of rounding up members. So we basically owe the existence of this league to Frosty (among others, @SupaHeeroh was another big factor and I apologise if I've forgotten other especially important people). Also, he's made a huge effort to be democratic which is great to see and although some of his decisions have been (frankly) rash they've had the (percieved) best interests and (occasionally misunderstood) wants of league members at heart. WWE 2K16 is a very different game to WWE 2K15 and therefore needs different league rules - we have more freedom to be competitive because finishers can be kicked out of consistently and pretty much everyone has the skill to have an OK match with anyone else. But there are exploits in the game that can be abused and it's difficult to decide whether these should all be banned/restricted, and to what degree it's practical to do so.
Obviously, moves that can't be reversed shouldn't be allowed, but in 2k16 you only really hit finishers when you're on top of someone has no stocks, or they have one and think you're doing a normal grapple and not a finisher - so people only win when they're ahead in reversals. People always start with the same number, so you only get ahead by being the first person to hit a grapple/strike (whether you do chain wrestling beforehand is irrelevant, even if people excuse it more if you do), or by hitting a strike/grapple when their opponent was the last person to do a reversal. So to say people are cheating when they do this is stupid - it isn't only the best way to win, it's the only way. On the other hand, some moves make doing that very easy, and I agree with the moves that were removed today. I will now have to take Sweep and Dropkick 13 out of my moveset, and I would use each of these around once a match before for the reasons detailed above, but I put them in when they weren't illegal (or even talked about), and when I'd lost my first 10-15 matches consecutively because I couldn't reverse moves online (this was 2k15, I just brought them over for 2k16), and I think it's good that no-one will now have them.
When Sam was GM in 2K15, there was such a gulf in skill between the good players (@Harrison, @Gambino etc, and that Erron Black guy that never made it over here (and also rarely promo'd)) and the bad ones (the newer members and very, very much me) was so vast that matches would regularly end in 2-3 minutes without the loser hitting a move (or hitting very few). Another reason for that was the fact that the old kickout meter was so impossible online that matches were won (basically without exception) with the first finisher (a far, far cry from today). Also, 2k15 having no reversal restriction meant that matches between good players would just be constant reversal-fests that weren't exactly interesting either, and would sometimes only end with glitchy/catch finishers.
This made the league boring because matches were short, uncompetitive and boring to play and watch. So Sam wrote an excellent thread on how to put on good matches, and recommended that everyone should hit at least one OMG moment before going for a finisher and pin and gave some other ideas about how to pad the runtime, which majorly improved match quality and gave poorer players the chance to get some moves in in that extra time. This meant that the end period of the 2k15 league was much better except for the clusterfuck that was the world title picture after Hawk dropped the belt and a small number of members (two things he didn't really control). So when he's angry about such a short, unentertaining match happening between him and Frosty I totally, totally get why. But that isn't what usually happens in 2k16 because nearly everyone can kick out of multiple finishers in a match now and there's less of a skill difference in members than there was so short matches are usually a problem of the past.
Just to give Frosty his well deserved due as a GM - he overcame possibly the biggest obstacle a league GM has ever faced which is the closing down of the website where the league was hosted. He convinced the Admin(s) of this site to give the leagues from another site an entire section, and support them, and then was a big part of rounding up members. So we basically owe the existence of this league to Frosty (among others, @SupaHeeroh was another big factor and I apologise if I've forgotten other especially important people). Also, he's made a huge effort to be democratic which is great to see and although some of his decisions have been (frankly) rash they've had the (percieved) best interests and (occasionally misunderstood) wants of league members at heart. WWE 2K16 is a very different game to WWE 2K15 and therefore needs different league rules - we have more freedom to be competitive because finishers can be kicked out of consistently and pretty much everyone has the skill to have an OK match with anyone else. But there are exploits in the game that can be abused and it's difficult to decide whether these should all be banned/restricted, and to what degree it's practical to do so.
Obviously, moves that can't be reversed shouldn't be allowed, but in 2k16 you only really hit finishers when you're on top of someone has no stocks, or they have one and think you're doing a normal grapple and not a finisher - so people only win when they're ahead in reversals. People always start with the same number, so you only get ahead by being the first person to hit a grapple/strike (whether you do chain wrestling beforehand is irrelevant, even if people excuse it more if you do), or by hitting a strike/grapple when their opponent was the last person to do a reversal. So to say people are cheating when they do this is stupid - it isn't only the best way to win, it's the only way. On the other hand, some moves make doing that very easy, and I agree with the moves that were removed today. I will now have to take Sweep and Dropkick 13 out of my moveset, and I would use each of these around once a match before for the reasons detailed above, but I put them in when they weren't illegal (or even talked about), and when I'd lost my first 10-15 matches consecutively because I couldn't reverse moves online (this was 2k15, I just brought them over for 2k16), and I think it's good that no-one will now have them.
Really, we have to find a balance between putting on matches that are fun to play for everyone, and playing for the satisfaction of winning that makes as many people as possible happy - maybe the bans put in today will help that but only time and healthy debate will tell. Really sorry for such a long post (and for bringing back up an issue that seemed to be kinda finished with) but I felt like a lot of important things on both sides hadn't been said. Not going to TL;DR it because I'd at least like the people it's about (and ideally as many others as possible) to read it in full whenever they get a chance. Thanks y'all, love to everyone. There are no inherently bad people in this league, please try not to act like it you guys. <3
disagreeing and pointing out shit out is a whole different thing. Spamming the OOC thread with pointless posts which you know is going to spark a bad reaction is a no no. Today would be a good example. It started with Sam calling out my video and ended up going for about 50 posts with people just going over the same shit and some insults were in there as well. I will no longer allow dumb arguments that go nowhere and which are not needed. I'm sure the Admin of the forum is sick of all the shit going down in this league for the past few months and I need to put a stop to it.
I'm not going to. I'm too busy laughing at the fact that you think people like you.
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Agreed. In that case, could I suggest that a ban on "provocation" would be better? Or that whenever a pointless argument happens you say you want no more posts on an issue, istead of having an actual rule? Again just imo.