Clash of Champions RATE CLASH OF CHAMPS! '19

[TheprofileofJericho]

Umm nope. Never did a playground insult, rather you’re missing the entire point and not worth my effort. I pick and choose my battles and what’s worth investing in, and it’s not worth it :emoji_slight_smile:

Facepalm and not worth my effort. Good job dude, now you just keep proving my point. Also you chose whats worth investing in? What are you, a prize debater?

 

[edge4ever]

Facepalm and not worth my effort. Good job dude, now you just keep proving my point. Also you chose whats worth investing in? What are you, a prize debater?

Actually, yes, I’m like Brock. Your Roman. And you already proved my point posts ago, so don’t steal my line and act as if I’m proving yours. Hence why I just decided to opt out of a back and forth with someone I’d have to relay all the groundwork of a discussion I already explained.

Agree to disagree. Let’s move on.

 

[TheprofileofJericho]

Actually, yes, I’m like Brock. Your Roman. And you already proved my point posts ago, so don’t steal my line and act as if I’m proving yours. Hence why I just decided to opt out of a back and forth with someone I’d have to relay all the groundwork of a discussion I already explained.

Agree to disagree. Let’s move on.

I have no idea what your imaginary point was (not sure you do either), but mine was that you were petty, and you proved it rather well, with your facepalms, and foolish remarks, so don't try coming off like the bigger person now, and say agree to disagree. This whole problem arose because you couldn't agree to disagree.
Now we can move on.

 

[Jeffry Mason]

How am I proving your point, and where did I say I don't want the Fiend getting pushed, or that he sucks? A push can only be archived by winning the Universal title? I don't like it because it doesn't make sense, I am a huge Bray fan (as my profile pic suggests). But what has he done in a kayfabe sense to deserve a Universal title match, beat Balor? I guess wanting someone to be built up like a legitimate contender, through win streaks is too much to ask. Lets just give title shots because people look at the title, or attack the champion. That will make the title feel great, and the person holding it even better (look at how well its working out for Rollins who we all praised a year ago).

Jericho got a shot at the AEW title after only defeating Omega, while poor Hangman had to win a battle royal. In what kayfabe sense does that seem fair? Especially in a company trying to pass themselves off as making sure wins and losses and streaks and such are of utmost importance.

Ronda won the Women's title in only her second match ever, getting handed the shot just because she was a big deal and challenged the champ.

Brock Lesnar won the UFC title going into the match with an all time MMA record of 2-1 (or 1-1 if you only look at UFC).

If you want to go back to when streaks and wins were of the utmost importance, perhaps try going back a decade or so, when Triple H was literally just handed the world title by Bischoff... no wait, that doesn't work. Go back to the 80s, when Andre turned on his best friend Hulk Hogan and said "I want a shot at the World World Wrestling Tag Team Champion" and Hulk was all like "Dafuq did you just say, brother jack? Yeah sure whatever dude". No wait that's not right either.

If you really wanna go back to when wins and streaks were important, go back to the 1930s. But even then, guys would be put into matches they didn't earn just because it would make the promoter money. And in a way, that's how it still works. Open challenges, money matches that the fans really wanna see, and matches where one dude is sorta just thrown in there because they're a threat in some way, these are all legitimate ways that title contenders are named, and that goes for WWE, UFC, and even boxing to some extent.

From a match quality perspective, I gave this show an 8 and already explained the negatives. Had that one match and 1 finish been better, probably would've been a 9, and if the overall match quality was higher, it would have been a 10. I'm not Meltzer, so I don't make up a different scale depending on what I'm watching. As a wrestling fan, one who has had no issue in the past calling out bullshit when it comes tobasically any aspect of wrestling no less, I enjoyed this show. And you are certainly more than welcome to have your opinion as well, tastes differ and I totally get that.

 

[Jay-Ashley]

This thread reminds me why I never talk about wrestling on here, or talk about it in a serious manner.

 

[edge4ever]

Jericho got a shot at the AEW title after only defeating Omega, while poor Hangman had to win a battle royal. In what kayfabe sense does that seem fair? Especially in a company trying to pass themselves off as making sure wins and losses and streaks and such are of utmost importance.

Ronda won the Women's title in only her second match ever, getting handed the shot just because she was a big deal and challenged the champ.

Brock Lesnar won the UFC title going into the match with an all time MMA record of 2-1 (or 1-1 if you only look at UFC).

If you want to go back to when streaks and wins were of the utmost importance, perhaps try going back a decade or so, when Triple H was literally just handed the world title by Bischoff... no wait, that doesn't work. Go back to the 80s, when Andre turned on his best friend Hulk Hogan and said "I want a shot at the World World Wrestling Tag Team Champion" and Hulk was all like "Dafuq did you just say, brother jack? Yeah sure whatever dude". No wait that's not right either.

If you really wanna go back to when wins and streaks were important, go back to the 1930s. But even then, guys would be put into matches they didn't earn just because it would make the promoter money. And in a way, that's how it still works. Open challenges, money matches that the fans really wanna see, and matches where one dude is sorta just thrown in there because they're a threat in some way, these are all legitimate ways that title contenders are named, and that goes for WWE, UFC, and even boxing to some extent.

From a match quality perspective, I gave this show an 8 and already explained the negatives. Had that one match and 1 finish been better, probably would've been a 9, and if the overall match quality was higher, it would have been a 10. I'm not Meltzer, so I don't make up a different scale depending on what I'm watching. As a wrestling fan, one who has had no issue in the past calling out bullshit when it comes tobasically any aspect of wrestling no less, I enjoyed this show. And you are certainly more than welcome to have your opinion as well, tastes differ and I totally get that.

You get it. You da man!

 

[Jacob Fox]

Who let Reag drink again?

It was me. I thought he could handle his booze

 

[Jacob Fox]

. Go back to the 80s, when Andre turned on his best friend Hulk Hogan and said "I want a shot at the World World Wrestling Tag Team Champion" and Hulk was all like "Dafuq did you just say, brother jack? Yeah sure whatever dude". No wait that's not right either.

Andre was billed as having a 15 year winning streak and that was the major reason he felt he deserved the title match. In that instance, the winning streak was very important to the story.

 

[bullyballmm]

The only kayfabe thing I can think of is that Bray used his spoopy magic to convince management to give him a title match. Like "These aren't the droids your looking for" type of thing

 

[edge4ever]

The only kayfabe thing I can think of is that Bray used his spoopy magic to convince management to give him a title match. Like "These aren't the droids your looking for" type of thing

To me, the kayfabe is that the bray wants to not only be the best, but wants to destroy the hero’s of WWE. The good. He wants to weed them out. What better way to do that than beat the hero, Seth Rollins, and take the WWE’s universal title.

Didn’t bray already acknowledge something like this in his funhouse and how Vince can’t deny that he’s making the company money?

 

[TheprofileofJericho]

Jericho got a shot at the AEW title after only defeating Omega, while poor Hangman had to win a battle royal. In what kayfabe sense does that seem fair? Especially in a company trying to pass themselves off as making sure wins and losses and streaks and such are of utmost importance.

Ronda won the Women's title in only her second match ever, getting handed the shot just because she was a big deal and challenged the champ.

Brock Lesnar won the UFC title going into the match with an all time MMA record of 2-1 (or 1-1 if you only look at UFC).

If you want to go back to when streaks and wins were of the utmost importance, perhaps try going back a decade or so, when Triple H was literally just handed the world title by Bischoff... no wait, that doesn't work. Go back to the 80s, when Andre turned on his best friend Hulk Hogan and said "I want a shot at the World World Wrestling Tag Team Champion" and Hulk was all like "Dafuq did you just say, brother jack? Yeah sure whatever dude". No wait that's not right either.

If you really wanna go back to when wins and streaks were important, go back to the 1930s. But even then, guys would be put into matches they didn't earn just because it would make the promoter money. And in a way, that's how it still works. Open challenges, money matches that the fans really wanna see, and matches where one dude is sorta just thrown in there because they're a threat in some way, these are all legitimate ways that title contenders are named, and that goes for WWE, UFC, and even boxing to some extent.

From a match quality perspective, I gave this show an 8 and already explained the negatives. Had that one match and 1 finish been better, probably would've been a 9, and if the overall match quality was higher, it would have been a 10. I'm not Meltzer, so I don't make up a different scale depending on what I'm watching. As a wrestling fan, one who has had no issue in the past calling out bullshit when it comes tobasically any aspect of wrestling no less, I enjoyed this show. And you are certainly more than welcome to have your opinion as well, tastes differ and I totally get that.

Yes there have been many times in wrestling where people got title shots for no logical reason, its the nature of the business. With all of this being said, you cannot compare Andre to any modern WWE wrestler, it just isn't fair. In the 80's Andre was a bigger star than all of the current roster put together, so giving him random title shots isn't nearly the same as giving it to someone who isn't that well established. Same thing with Jericho, dude has had a 20 + career of greatness (even though you might disagree ??), also Triple H, do you see a pattern, these were all well established guys, which the Fiend is not. I don't have that big of a problem when these types of guys get random title shots (even though I still don't like it), what I have a problem with is giving free title shots to your current non-established roster.
As far as Clash of champions goes I gave my reasons why I thought it was mediocre, you gave your's why you thought it was great. We disagree and that's that, no harm no foul.
Also I get the point you were making with UFC, and while it has many parallels with WWE I don't like to compare the two.


Nice post, fun read.

 

[Jeffry Mason]

Andre was billed as having a 15 year winning streak and that was the major reason he felt he deserved the title match. In that instance, the winning streak was very important to the story.

It was, yes, but it wasn't something where President Tunney decided to give him one based on that merit. Andre challenged Hogan and he accepted. That's all my point was in that case.

Yes there have been many times in wrestling where people got title shots for no logical reason, its the nature of the business. With all of this being said, you cannot compare Andre to any modern WWE wrestler, it just isn't fair. In the 80's Andre was a bigger star than all of the current roster put together, so giving him random title shots isn't nearly the same as giving it to someone who isn't that well established. Same thing with Jericho, dude has had a 20 + career of greatness (even though you might disagree ??), also Triple H, do you see a pattern, these were all well established guys, which the Fiend is not. I don't have that big of a problem when these types of guys get random title shots (even though I still don't like it), what I have a problem with is giving free title shots to your current non-established roster.

The Fiend isn't a new character, just a new arc for the same guy who's been there. Bray has been there for just about a decade. It took him about 8 to win his first world title. For comparison sake, Triple H debuted in WWF in 94 and it only took him 5 years, and arguably would've been less had he not been punished for the curtain call. Jericho had only been with the company a little over 2 before they put him over Rock and Austin in the same night to be the first Undisputed champion. If guys like Kofi and Bray haven't paid their dues and shown, both in and out of kayfabe, that they deserve to be main eventer in world title contention, then who has? We can't have Orton vs Cena forever, after all.

Bray has, since returning as the Fiend, proven himself to be a physical and mental threat to the champion. As of recently, based on those actions, he is arguably the best choice to be number one contender, outside of perhaps Corbin for winning KOTR. Besides all of that, Seth has vowed to be a fighting champion pretty much any time he's held a belt as a face, which can be construed as an open challenge.

Thank you btw, I enjoy having these respectful debates. It's not as common as it should be amongst wrestling fans lol

 

[Jacob Fox]

It was, yes, but it wasn't something where President Tunney decided to give him one based on that merit. Andre challenged Hogan and he accepted. That's all my point was in that case.

Yeah. But story line wise they made a HUGE deal about that streak. And Hogan didn't just accept. It took a while for it. But the winning streak was important. They only had Hogan accept because he was the big hero, If he declined he would have looked like a coward. I agree with all your other examples but not this one.

 

[TheprofileofJericho]

It was, yes, but it wasn't something where President Tunney decided to give him one based on that merit. Andre challenged Hogan and he accepted. That's all my point was in that case.



The Fiend isn't a new character, just a new arc for the same guy who's been there. Bray has been there for just about a decade. It took him about 8 to win his first world title. For comparison sake, Triple H debuted in WWF in 94 and it only took him 5 years, and arguably would've been less had he not been punished for the curtain call. Jericho had only been with the company a little over 2 before they put him over Rock and Austin in the same night to be the first Undisputed champion. If guys like Kofi and Bray haven't paid their dues and shown, both in and out of kayfabe, that they deserve to be main eventer in world title contention, then who has? We can't have Orton vs Cena forever, after all.

Bray has, since returning as the Fiend, proven himself to be a physical and mental threat to the champion. As of recently, based on those actions, he is arguably the best choice to be number one contender, outside of perhaps Corbin for winning KOTR. Besides all of that, Seth has vowed to be a fighting champion pretty much any time he's held a belt as a face, which can be construed as an open challenge.

Thank you btw, I enjoy having these respectful debates. It's not as common as it should be amongst wrestling fans lol

Its True that it took Bray more time to win the world title than some of these guys, but let's not forget that Bray had a reputation of being a massive loser in his previous run. He always talked a big game against the top guys in the company, but never actually managed to win a big time match. It wasn't until 2016/2017. that the company finally started taking him seriously, and he won the world title by winning the elimination chamber (which is one of the most legitimate ways to win a world title). I think at that time we were all excited that this guy was finally getting the push he deserved. Only problem though, he lost the title in one month to Orton in an awful WM match. This was bad enough, but then you look at what happened after that, the house of horrors match, losing to Finn Balor 2 PPVs in a row, for crying out loud he was planning to wear a dress, and come out as Sister Abigail in his TLC match with Balor (we have viral meningitis to thank for sparing us from that nightmare). After this point, there was no coming back for this character, he was utterly butchered. So you see, for me the Fiend isn't just another gimmick, its a complete reset that this character desperately needed to survive. So in order to completely distance him from the old loser Bray Wyatt, I wanted the Fiend to go on a massive winning streak, and become a legitimate monster, washing away the stench of the old Bray Wyatt character before eventually moving to a World title match. That's all there is too it.


I enjoy having discussions with you as well. Definitely one of the most positive experiences in this forum, as far as debating goes. Although I feel like we keep destroying these threads with our rambles ? ? .

 

[Grievous 3D]

I am thoroughly convinced that wrestling fans are basically impossible to please.
You could hand them nearly everything they want and because 1 or 2 things were
slightly off, well, now it all sucks.

I’m all for calling the WWE out on their bs, but man, ya’ll will NEVER be happy lol

Honestly...

I'd just like the main roster product to make sense, focus on continuity, tell
some interesting stories, push performers who can actually wrestle & quit
the feud extending "fucked finishes"

It can be frustrating to watch a wrestling show & have a your overall excitement
& investment take a hit over & over again...& I understand that frustration all to
well. I had to literally take a break from wrestling (& this place) to finally realize
that it was too frustrating for me to actually care & be invested in the WWE main
roster.

The WWE has a cast of amazing performers, high end production values & all
the money in the world...& yet...their product is...well...just repetitive & stale.

When I watch wrestling...I just want to be entertained...

Not insulted...and I feel insulted when I watch the WWE main roster.

Again...that's my own perspective...and if you enjoy the WWE...then I'm happy
for you...but I won't watch it again until REAL changes occur.