ah, opinions are like assholes, and MikeRaw has one too many, lol, j/k. How can you knowingly concede that Flair took his company to all of these other territories/companies and that the people paid to see him get his ass kicked but not acknowledge that it was FLAIR who carried NWA to those places, it was FLAIR who was the MAIN guy in WCW, without him Sting and Dusty Rhodes are afterthoughts, it was FLAIR who before Bischoff took over the booking was the real flagship behind WCW??? When he left WCW to go to WWF, WCW damn near went bankrupt, not until he returned did they pick up steam again. Silly Mike, trix are for kids.
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ah, opinions are like assholes, and MikeRaw has one too many, lol, j/k. How can you knowingly concede that Flair took his company to all of these other territories/companies and that the people paid to see him get his ass kicked but not acknowledge that it was FLAIR who carried NWA to those places, it was FLAIR who was the MAIN guy in WCW, without him Sting and Dusty Rhodes are afterthoughts, it was FLAIR who before Bischoff took over the booking was the real flagship behind WCW??? When he left WCW to go to WWF, WCW damn near went bankrupt, not until he returned did they pick up steam again. Silly Mike, trix are for kids.
Airfixx
Guest
MikeRaw
Guest
No, WCW was at it's prime from the mid to late 90's, and as much as I like Flair, he had very little to do with it. Before that, when Flair would've been "the guy" in the company, yes, he was the main guy, and I guess you could say he carried it, but does carrying something that was failing at the time really count? I see Flair as the best tier 2 main eventer of all time. Again, I have great respect for Flair, this stupid argument is making it look as if I don't think he's great. My opinion is he's just one notch below the Hogan, Austin ranks who actually carried the industr. But dude, we need to take this debate elsewhere. It's not even anything to do with the original topic anymore...Look at how this started...
You said:
That's fair enough. I went on to say that I agree, Edge doesn't deserve to be in the Tier 1, he deverse to be where you put him in Tier 3, cause he was never the main guy. All I said was I would take Flair and put him in tier 2, instead of 1. Now seriously, we've really fucked up this thread for everyone else. If you want to continute the conversation as to whether or not Flair is in tier 1 or tier 2, I'll do so, and we can debate that in another thread if you make one, but it shouldn't be continued here, because now the whole conversation of Edge has been lost, and this debate has nothing to do with Edge. Let's get back on topic. Make another thread if you still want to talk about Flair.
Edge is awesome, but he hasn't won a title under normal circumstances, he's a good enough wrestler for them to have him win matches without cheating, but the ''writers'' (GOD these writers suck!) are lazy enough to back to the same thing every title reign
MikeRaw
Guest
I dont think that makes them suck. Hes only won 2 titles by way of MITB, and the others have either been won fairly, or in some cases, won by cheating in different ways. But that's a smart move. It gets him over. If he wins fairly, then the fans have one less reason to boo him, if he cheats, they have one more reason to boo.
Montana nailed it on the head here. Edge's reigns are pretty much meaningless because the title has been passed around like a cheap whore for the last 10+ years. Not to mention there are two of them to win now too.
MikeRaw
Guest
Woo! We're back on topic. Let's keep it this way :clap:
Anyways, yes, I have to agree with Montana, despite the fact that I still think Edge is one of the best heels in the past 15 years, no one can dispute he wouldn't have had 8 reigns in a different era. With that being said though, that goes for everyone. Triple H wouldn't have as many as he has (13, is it?), Cena wouldn't have the amount he has, and Batista, same thing. But what's funny is, it goes back further than that. I think we forget how many title changes th attitude era had. It seemed a title would change hands at every PPV. It's interesting to think what the difference in title reigns would be if stuff was still booked the way it was say 20 years ago, with super huge title reigns and everything.
Anyways, yes, I have to agree with Montana, despite the fact that I still think Edge is one of the best heels in the past 15 years, no one can dispute he wouldn't have had 8 reigns in a different era. With that being said though, that goes for everyone. Triple H wouldn't have as many as he has (13, is it?), Cena wouldn't have the amount he has, and Batista, same thing. But what's funny is, it goes back further than that. I think we forget how many title changes th attitude era had. It seemed a title would change hands at every PPV. It's interesting to think what the difference in title reigns would be if stuff was still booked the way it was say 20 years ago, with super huge title reigns and everything.
I think his development over the years and his feuds, not his title reigns will be what he's remembered for.
Kinda like HBK is looked at now now because I would bet that most who watch now never saw his as champion aside from maybe his nostalgia run when he came back, but it's all about his feuds not his championships.
Kinda like HBK is looked at now now because I would bet that most who watch now never saw his as champion aside from maybe his nostalgia run when he came back, but it's all about his feuds not his championships.
MikeRaw
Guest
I just think he's done too much in every aspect of the industry to not be eventually considered a legend. Like you said, he's had memorabel feuds, but the key is he also basically redefined tag team wrestling before that as welll. There's a strong chance he would've gone into the HOF regardless, as a tag team, similar to how the BlackJacks and guys like that get in. So if he was gonna get in then, all this other stuff is basically icing on the cake.
Montana
Guest
I think we are starting to reach a middle ground of agreement. I think your orginal statement I took wrong, and its slightly changed. I took it as Edge is a 8 time champ, soon to be 9, he's an all time great/legend.( one of the best ever) Which is pretty much what you said. However throughout the thread you slightly adjusted the wording to where i would tend to agree. Saying Edge is one of the best heels in 15 years, I'd say yes.
I do think the guys you mentioned in you grouping (HBK, Taker, Flair, Savage, HHH, Hart) are a SLIGHT bit a head of Edge at the moment. I guess i consider TOP guy, as in Winning the WWE champinoship at Wrestlemania, something all those guys have done, except Flair, who was bigger premania/NWA/WCW. I do consider Edge a top ten guy in the last 25 years though. It's still early in Edge's career as you mentioned. He could be main eventing the next 5 years.
What i meant was (Which i thought i explained)
Mick Foley can say he's the greatest hardcore wrestler in the history of the business, and people can't argue with it much.
Big Show can say he's done a HELL of a a lot more than Kane and Andre the Giant, and he's the biggest athlete ever. Big Show weighs almost 200 lbs more than Kane. Big Show has won 2 WCW championships, 2 WWF World championship, and the ECW belt. Big Show has beaten Hogan, Flair, Undertaker, Brock, Rock, HHH.....and thats just who's he's beat to win those belts. He even fought Floyd Mayweather at Mania. He wrestled two championship matches at Mania. What's Kane done...and 1 day title run?
Technically you could group Rey Mysterio as the greatest cruiserweight ever in this mix too, however he's not up their in these guys.
I can't deny Edge's accomplishments, certainly some incredible stat's with all of his championship, but what's Edge goign to be famous for, when it's all said and done? The arguement was Edge's legendary status, and i dont feel just because he's won the belt X amount of times means that much. I think at the moment, there really isn't anything that seperates him making him the best at one particular thing. Maybe he will go down in history as winning the most championships, and that's what he will be known for. but for now, Edge hasn't have that one thing that seperates him. Hogan was the face of wrestling, Austin changed wrestling, Flair is the greatest wrestler, Rock had the best mic skills, Undertaker was undefeated at mania, HBK is the showstopper.
I don't think Edge will be a "legend" but he'll definitely be close to it. Right now, John Cena will probably be the top guy of this era. There's no one else that comes close, IMO. And when we look back it looks like Edge was Cena's greatest rival. He was the one that dethroned Cena the first time, and he was the anti-Cena for the past couple of years. So what I'm trying to say is that Cena and Edge help each other in terms of a lasting legacy.
The Rated R CMStar
Guest
...and Edge is the Ultimate Opportunist.
Nobody is basing Edge's legendary status on his championship reigns BTW. Edge will be remembered by always finding the spot to capitalize on.
By the notion that "he's the best big men out there", "he took lucha libre to new heights", a guy like Zach Gowen, who is also on a league of his own, will be remembered as a legend.