Wow RE: The WWE Title Match From Yesterday

[seX-Power]

That's another thing that puzzled me. The Miz gets a lot more heat than Kane and ADR, just naming two examples that Kaedon I think said were more over.

 

[Kaedon]

I don't think he really knows what "draw" means. I think in general, it's as misguided a term amongst smarks as "carry" is. In the WWE, the only proven draws are John Cena, Undertaker and Rey. That's it. People can argue for Trips, but one can rebut that under his reign as the top guy from 02-05, numbers dropped 25%. And that's not really a fair criticism to make against him, despite the Hunter lovefest and talent burial that accrued under his watch, but his solo returns have never generated a noticeable and most importantly, prolonged spike in the ratings.

Whether or not a wrestler can draw is dependent on one thing and one thing only, the people. If the people respond to him consistently, he's a draw; if not, he's not. It's that simple

The days of having single stars like Hogans, Flairs, Austins and Rocks as meal ticket draws are over, they've been over for 8 years. The WWE markets itself as an entire company, and not as just one big ticket act and associated superstars. It's simplified it's marketing to brand itself as what the fans are paying to see instead of taking the potential risks of losing stars they branded, such as Hogan, Austin, Rock and Lesnar to other forms of entertainment and media.

You can say that, but as soon as a guy gets hot enough, like a Cena, the WWE builds the show around them. "The era of single stars is dead" is a pseudo intellectual statement with no real meaning. That will be an era as long as there is someone there to do it. Hogan did it, Rock did it, Austin did it, HBK did it, HHH did it, and now John Cena is doing it.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

how many fucking times do I have to answer this, yes, of those active, Show, Rey, Edge, and Kane, along with Cena, Punk, and Orton. Then after 6 months or a year, someone else should be ready. Then after 6 months or so, someone else should be ready, and so on and so on. If not, give it to a transitional champ, not some meatbag off the street who can barely draw flies.

Show, Rey, Edge, Kane, Undertaker, Cena, Punk, Orton, Triple H, Chris Jericho... (the last two added because there's no way they don't fall under your list anyways and in reference to the point I will make) have been running the Championship scene even since we had Rock and Austin at the ends of their runs, and Benoit, EG, Booker, Kurt, etc. in the mix as well. They've been the mainstays in the title scene for the last 4-5 years, so that is 10 6-month intervals that you mentioned that someone else would and should be ready. Jeff Hardy got a run, so that is 1 guy. Swagger got a run, that's 2 down. Sheamus is no more over than anyone (especially Miz) so put him off of this 6-month interval list you've created from nothing here.

So why can't Miz be the transitional champ or the one every 6-months to be ready enough to make his name?

I don't think he really knows what "draw" means. I think in general, it's as misguided a term amongst smarks as "carry" is. In the WWE, the only proven draws are John Cena, Undertaker and Rey. That's it. People can argue for Trips, but one can rebut that under his reign as the top guy from 02-05, numbers dropped 25%. And that's not really a fair criticism to make against him, despite the Hunter lovefest and talent burial that accrued under his watch, but his solo returns have never generated a noticeable and most importantly, prolonged spike in the ratings. And since the end of the attitude era, not a single star sans Cena and Misterio, with his Latino constituency, can lay down such a claim.

The days of having single stars like Hogans, Flairs, Austins and Rocks as meal ticket draws are over, they've been over for 8 years. The WWE markets itself as an entire company, and not as just one big ticket act and associated superstars. It's simplified it's marketing to brand itself as what the fans are paying to see instead of taking the potential risks of losing stars they branded, such as Hogan, Austin, Rock and Lesnar to other forms of entertainment and media. They've followed this model since the switch of the name, despite the losses of guys like Lesnar and Lashley. And their business has remained fairly consistent, especially since they are the only mainstream company that matters (not directed as a slap to TNA, it's just a matter of fact). The numbers have basically fluctuated between mid 3s and high twos for Raw between 03 and now. Numbers have been up with guys like HHH, Edge, Cena and Show gone and numbers have been down with all those guys on board. Does that mean that Trips shouldn't be on TV since the numbers are steady right now? That Edge should never have came back because they are basically where they are now thean without him? That Miz shouldn't be champion because he isn't something that really doesn't exist in the WWE business model? The E is in a transition period, what they are doing with the Miz is what you do. They are making stars. Not everyone is going to be an Austin in their first reign. Hunter and Rocky's first reigns were somewhat forced as well, and everything turned out fine for them.

We've seen it time and time again, the term ""draw" means very little now. Just look at TNA. Would you say that RVD, Jeff Hardy, Kurt Angle, and Hulk Hogan are bigger draws? What the fuck are they drawing? The same 1.1 rate that TNA was drawing the five years before their arrivals? An average of 3-10k less PPV buys they were averaging at their peak? So by Kaedon's expplanation of drawing power, guys that he would insist were bigger draws in the WWE in their championship roles, guys like Angle, RVD, Hardy and the second biggest draw (Austin drew more, made more cash) of all time in Hogan and what have they drawn to TNA? NOTHING. So, in that sense the WWE's losses have been anything but gains for TNA. So, that being said, why again isn't the Miz fit to be champ and what are the risks associated with him being protected by the industry's biggest draw, the WWE name. And stuff it on the heatless argument, Miz gets heat.

Thank you for EVERY point you made!

Kaedon, to "draw" means bring people in. Nexus drew for a month at the beginning, because they were taking Cena out, something people wanted to see, and it was actually happening. Cena's biggest drawing factor at this point in this period of his character would be to see him turn heel...

That's another thing that puzzled me. The Miz gets a lot more heat than Kane and ADR, just naming two examples that Kaedon I think said were more over.

Exactly, and I've cited examples of Miz being over (we can even pull up archives from this forum of numerous people talking about how Miz was third in crowd reaction as a heel behind Punk and Jericho at a point, even over the stale Edge).

Whether or not a wrestler can draw is dependent on one thing and one thing only, the people. If the people respond to him consistently, he's a draw; if not, he's not. It's that simple

No, that's called a reaction, see above for definition of draw...

You can say that, but as soon as a guy gets hot enough, like a Cena, the WWE builds the show around them. "The era of single stars is dead" is a pseudo intellectual statement with no real meaning. That will be an era as long as there is someone there to do it. Hogan did it, Rock did it, Austin did it, HBK did it, HHH did it, and now John Cena is doing it.

Of course they build around the top dog, that's called good business... that would be like ignoring Vince McMahon in advertising the work WWE does outside of the ring... and giving all the credit to his staff. Clearly his staff is what makes shit work, what you market... but you build your entire pitch around Vince McMahon... the guy who has say in ANYTHING the company does.


By the way, if you keep arguing this Rock/Austin 3-month feud; I'll keep arguing Miz vs. DX. Triple H has held more titles than Austin, therefore he's more experienced as champion. Hell, he successfully defended his title against Austin, and even won titles from Austin... therefore Triple H is clearly in a boat around Austin. Triple H has been the [Kaedon Definition]biggest draw and most experienced/deserving champion/superstar in the company for several years at one point[/Kaedon Definition], therefore he's further established. Shawn Michaels has been one of the biggest draws (literal meaning) in the history of the sport, and is arguably one of the top 3-5 most entertaining, experienced draws and performers the world of wrestling has ever seen. Thus concluding, for the Miz to defeat them as a team in a match, and hold his own on the mic with 'em... concludes he's done something far more than worthwhile with his career, and thus deserves to have a Heavyweight strap around his waist, even if just a transitional or 6-month interval proven deserved champ.

Now go suck at Cena, Punk, Orton, Show, Mysterio, Kane, and Edge's cocks...

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

You can say that, but as soon as a guy gets hot enough, like a Cena, the WWE builds the show around them. "The era of single stars is dead" is a pseudo intellectual statement with no real meaning. That will be an era as long as there is someone there to do it. Hogan did it, Rock did it, Austin did it, HBK did it, HHH did it, and now John Cena is doing it.

And this is easily the most pseudo intellectual rebuttal you have ever made. And that's saying something. As much as I love HBK, he wasn't a draw, he was the main star of a company with a built in fan base that was declining. Now mind you, he was really the only star on the roster at the time the nWo just started taking off, but the numbers failed to raise under HBK's reign in 96. And please don't point to DX, that was an entire company rebooting initiative fueled by the ever surging Austin. And then you say Trips is a draw? How do you come to that conclusion? The numbers dipped 25% from 02-03 when he was the main guy on Raw. Again, just another main star on a company with a built in fan base. And Cena, while a proven draw, isn't as anywhere near Hogan, Austin, or Rock level. Matter of factly, you can almost argue that he isn't a draw either, he's just the top guy in the only mainstream company in America and they have a built in fan base that isn't going anywhere because there isn't any worthwhile competition. And again, if the age of single star draws were truly alive, why hasn't TNA had any reasonable growth with additions of RVD, Kurt Angle, Hulk Hogan, Jeff Hardy and the other million guys someone like you would claim to have been bigger draws than the Miz is when they were in the WWE within the past 8 years? BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T JUST FANS OF THE WRESTLERS, THEY ARE FANS OF THE WWE BRAND, WHICH IS DUE TO THE WAY THE WWE MARKETS ITSELF.

 

[Kaedon]

Show, Rey, Edge, Kane, Undertaker, Cena, Punk, Orton, Triple H, Chris Jericho... (the last two added because there's no way they don't fall under your list anyways and in reference to the point I will make) have been running the Championship scene even since we had Rock and Austin at the ends of their runs, and Benoit, EG, Booker, Kurt, etc. in the mix as well. They've been the mainstays in the title scene for the last 4-5 years, so that is 10 6-month intervals that you mentioned that someone else would and should be ready. Jeff Hardy got a run, so that is 1 guy. Swagger got a run, that's 2 down. Sheamus is no more over than anyone (especially Miz) so put him off of this 6-month interval list you've created from nothing here.

So why can't Miz be the transitional champ or the one every 6-months to be ready enough to make his name?

Because he's not ready. He's not as over as those that I mentioned who can carry the title.

Kaedon, to "draw" means bring people in. Nexus drew for a month at the beginning, because they were taking Cena out, something people wanted to see, and it was actually happening. Cena's biggest drawing factor at this point in this period of his character would be to see him turn heel...


Exactly, and I've cited examples of Miz being over (we can even pull up archives from this forum of numerous people talking about how Miz was third in crowd reaction as a heel behind Punk and Jericho at a point, even over the stale Edge).


No, that's called a reaction, see above for definition of draw...

How do you know if people come to see you? BY THE FUCKING REACTIONS!!! Maybe a second is merch sales but if you're got getting consistent heat or noise from the crowd, they aren't there to see you, period.

Of course they build around the top dog, that's called good business... that would be like ignoring Vince McMahon in advertising the work WWE does outside of the ring... and giving all the credit to his staff. Clearly his staff is what makes shit work, what you market... but you build your entire pitch around Vince McMahon... the guy who has say in ANYTHING the company does.

Apparently not, apparently to some this is the age of everyone draws equally, and no one guy is bigger than the rest.

By the way, if you keep arguing this Rock/Austin 3-month feud; I'll keep arguing Miz vs. DX. Triple H has held more titles than Austin, therefore he's more experienced as champion. Hell, he successfully defended his title against Austin, and even won titles from Austin... therefore Triple H is clearly in a boat around Austin. Triple H has been the [Kaedon Definition]biggest draw and most experienced/deserving champion/superstar in the company for several years at one point[/Kaedon Definition], therefore he's further established. Shawn Michaels has been one of the biggest draws (literal meaning) in the history of the sport, and is arguably one of the top 3-5 most entertaining, experienced draws and performers the world of wrestling has ever seen. Thus concluding, for the Miz to defeat them as a team in a match, and hold his own on the mic with 'em... concludes he's done something far more than worthwhile with his career, and thus deserves to have a Heavyweight strap around his waist, even if just a transitional or 6-month interval proven deserved champ.

Except for the fact that no one gave a shit about that DX feud and to this day, people still talk about the Rock/Austin IC title run.

Now go suck at Cena, Punk, Orton, Show, Mysterio, Kane, and Edge's cocks...

How silly of me to sing the praises of people who have done something, as opposed to singing the praises of someone who has done NOTHING.

And this is easily the most pseudo intellectual rebuttal you have ever made. And that's saying something. As much as I love HBK, he wasn't a draw, he was the main star of a company with a built in fan base that was declining. Now mind you, he was really the only star on the roster at the time the nWo just started taking off, but the numbers failed to raise under HBK's reign in 96.

This has got to be the dumbest thing I ever heard. HBK wasn't a draw? He wasn't rock/austin/ or the nWo, but he was a draw for sure. He was the only reason the WWE survived the monday night wars because, unlike WCW (which is a reason they stayed in so long) they had a shit undercard.

No, you're right Enzo, the fans we're paying to see D-Lo Brown and the Smoking Guns and not HBK, because no one ever really cared about him...

And please don't point to DX, that was an entire company rebooting initiative fueled by the ever surging Austin.

Why not? You used the nWo.

And then you say Trips is a draw? How do you come to that conclusion? The numbers dipped 25% from 02-03 when he was the main guy on Raw. Again, just another main star on a company with a built in fan base.

Crowd reaction, something the Miz barely gets.

And Cena, while a proven draw, isn't as anywhere near Hogan, Austin, or Rock level. Matter of factly, you can almost argue that he isn't a draw either, he's just the top guy in the only mainstream company in America and they have a built in fan base that isn't going anywhere because there isn't any worthwhile competition. And again, if the age of single star draws were truly alive, why hasn't TNA had any reasonable growth with additions of RVD, Kurt Angle, Hulk Hogan, Jeff Hardy and the other million guys someone like you would claim to have been bigger draws than the Miz is when they were in the WWE within the past 8 years? BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T JUST FANS OF THE WRESTLERS, THEY ARE FANS OF THE WWE BRAND, WHICH IS DUE TO THE WAY THE WWE MARKETS ITSELF.

If people are only fans of a brand, then I guess no one was ever a draw. No, no one cared about Hogan, they wanted to see that WWF brand of wrestling, you know, Hercules vs. The Warlord...... No one gave a rats ass about The Rock or Austin, they wanted to see Mae Young birthing a hand or a dead corpse getting fucked.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

[video=youtube;xjSlUJf2S84]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjSlUJf2S84[/video]

[video=youtube;6vxiQ9JCKvE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxiQ9JCKvE[/video]

[video=youtube;qssqqdDVzy8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssqqdDVzy8[/video]

[video=youtube;M9ycNg7Dz3c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9ycNg7Dz3c[/video]



The Miz gets no reaction?

REALLY!?

*crowd goes nuts*

REALLY!?

*crowd goes more nuts*

REALLY!?

*crowds continue to prove Kaedon deaf, dumb, and blind...*




As far as in-ring performance:

[video=youtube;lu5Q0lDrBaM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu5Q0lDrBaM[/video]

[video=youtube;Z5q8lHulXE8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5q8lHulXE8[/video]



That's a damn good match... on MIZ'S behalf...

 

[Kaedon]

Ok, Eve got a pop for making fun of Miz, whooppee. And Miz got a reaction working with Cena? NO WAY!!! Why don't you do listen to the reactions during his matches with Lawler, the crowd doesnt care unless they start chanting JERRY. Or better yet, listen to the little heat he gets when his music hits as opposed to the reaction Punk, Edge, Orton, or Cena get, you know, guys who actually matter.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

This has got to be the dumbest thing I ever heard. HBK wasn't a draw? He wasn't rock/austin/ or the nWo, but he was a draw for sure. He was the only reason the WWE survived the monday night wars because, unlike WCW (which is a reason they stayed in so long) they had a shit undercard.

No, you're right Enzo, the fans we're paying to see D-Lo Brown and the Smoking Guns and not HBK, because no one ever really cared about him...

A draw means growth, correct? HBK, as the main guy, you stubborn tool, had the audience DECREASE under his run. And you also failed to present my entire argument. The reason the WWE survived the Monday night wars was the built in fanbase they had established back in the eighties when a one person draw named Hogan helped establish the WWF as the first nationwide company. If Shawn was a draw, why'd they come so, so close to bankruptcy and almost folding the company? Why was Vince forced to change formats to raunchy television? BECAUSE SHAWN WAS A DRAW?? AMIRITE? GTFO. HBK was the top guy in a struggling company that still had it's built in fanbase.

Why not? You used the nWo.

The nWo produced growth while the business was stagnant and took WCW to the pinnacle of popularity. Again, you're separating my arguments for your convenience and again,avoiding the issue of the point I'm trying to make. The days of a company being pulled by one man are over. WCW relied on the nWo, the WWF tried relying on HBK and as the main star, the numbers decreased. So, if he was drawing, HOW IS BUSINESS DECLINING TO THE POINT OF NEAR BANKRUPTCY. Oh, that's right, crowd reaction.

If people are only fans of a brand, then I guess no one was ever a draw. No, no one cared about Hogan, they wanted to see that WWF brand of wrestling, you know, Hercules vs. The Warlord...... No one gave a rats ass about The Rock or Austin, they wanted to see Mae Young birthing a hand or a dead corpse getting fucked.

Again, you keep skirting the issue and avoiding the points I'm making. What the fuck does Warlord and Hercules have to do anything with what I'm saying? Absolutely nothing. They were under the Hogan reign, a name I said was a one man draw and was marketed as such. And again with Rock and Austin. I already covered that, said they were draws. Trips isn't, business and numbers went down, but the built in fanbase stayed. The built in fanbase will always stay. And guys will always get reactions. But if they aren't bringing higher numbers than what the company did before their time, or increase the viewers, they aren't drawing. Way to either misconstrue what I said, absolutely fail to read what I said, put words in my mouth or try to rebut in a terrible fashion.

So answer me this, since you keep avoiding to, if RVD, Angle, Hardy, Anderson, Hogan, Booker T and everyone else you would claim were draws in the WWE, via crowd reaction or actually, ya know, drawing, which I think you have no grasp of the concept, were bona fide draws, why hasn't their defections hurt the WWE brand and helped increase TNA in any sustainable way? BECAUSE THE WWE BRAND IS WHAT IS DRAWING. Their marketing method is what has put them in their situation and why they've been able to maintain their core, built in audience while TNA, with all the guys you would define as draws, are struggling and have no measurable growth. But hey, those 500 fans in the Impact Zone giving them reactions prove they are draws, right?

 

[Kaedon]

A draw means growth, correct? HBK, as the main guy, you stubborn tool, had the audience DECREASE under his run. And you also failed to present my entire argument. The reason the WWE survived the Monday night wars was the built in fanbase they had established back in the eighties when a one person draw named Hogan helped establish the WWF as the first nationwide company. If Shawn was a draw, why'd they come so, so close to bankruptcy and almost folding the company? Why was Vince forced to change formats to raunchy television? BECAUSE SHAWN WAS A DRAW?? AMIRITE? GTFO. HBK was the top guy in a struggling company that still had it's built in fanbase.

Because the rest of the card was shit. What's HBK supposed to do? Wrestle 9 times a night? There was a lot of shit in the WWE at the time of his run....

The nWo produced growth while the business was stagnant and took WCW to the pinnacle of popularity. Again, you're separating my arguments for your convenience and again,avoiding the issue of the point I'm trying to make. The days of a company being pulled by one man are over. WCW relied on the nWo, the WWF tried relying on HBK and as the main star, the numbers decreased. So, if he was drawing, HOW IS BUSINESS DECLINING TO THE POINT OF NEAR BANKRUPTCY. Oh, that's right, crowd reaction.

....contrast that with WCW which had more modern characters, better wrestlers, AND a main event angle that was on the cutting edge of the business, and yeah, they took over. But people were switching back to Raw. Why? Well according to you, it was because of Mantaur, but I contend it was their champ HBK.

Again, you keep skirting the issue and avoiding the points I'm making. What the fuck does Warlord and Hercules have to do anything with what I'm saying? Absolutely nothing. They were under the Hogan reign, a name I said was a one man draw and was marketed as such. And again with Rock and Austin. I already covered that, said they were draws. Trips isn't, business and numbers went down, but the built in fanbase stayed. The built in fanbase will always stay. And guys will always get reactions. But if they aren't bringing higher numbers than what the company did before their time, or increase the viewers, they aren't drawing. Way to either misconstrue what I said, absolutely fail to read what I said, put words in my mouth or try to rebut in a terrible fashion.

No, I keep using your own bullshit logic against you. Guys won't always get reactions, see the Miz and see half of the guys the WWE are trying to tell us are "main eventers". You said there were no one man draws, you said fans like "brands" not "wrestlers", so that logic applies when it proves our point right (ie Miz) but not when it proves your point wrong (Rock/Austin/Hogan)

So answer me this, since you keep avoiding to, if RVD, Angle, Hardy, Anderson, Hogan, Booker T and everyone else you would claim were draws in the WWE, via crowd reaction or actually, ya know, drawing, which I think you have no grasp of the concept, were bona fide draws, why hasn't their defections hurt the WWE brand and helped increase TNA in any sustainable way?

Bad booking.

BECAUSE THE WWE BRAND IS WHAT IS DRAWING.

Unless it was Rock/Austin/Hogan right, then it was the single person and not "the brand". Convenient.....

Their marketing method is what has put them in their situation and why they've been able to maintain their core, built in audience while TNA, with all the guys you would define as draws, are struggling and have no measurable growth. But hey, those 500 fans in the Impact Zone giving them reactions prove they are draws, right?

A built in audience of what? A hundred thousand people? You can have the brightest star in the world, but if you can't see it, no one will care. Conversely, you can have an overrated piece of garbage named the Miz who's done pretty much NOTHING in this business, and you can market him to be "the shit" all you want, and if he can't carry it (which he can't right now) he's going to suck and the fans are going to see through it. Everytime something new and shiny (Miz, Sheamus, Thwagger) comes along, I don't go "oooooo ahhhhh lookit!!! It's so good cuz it's new!!!". Do something, then I'll be impressed. until then, I'll just FF through most of the Miz segments/matches as thus far, a lot of them have been forgettable.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

Try harder and stop putting words in my mouth.

The days of having single stars like Hogans, Flairs, Austins and Rocks as meal ticket draws are over, they've been over for 8 years.

 

[Kaedon]

Matter of factly, you can almost argue that he isn't a draw either, he's (Cena)just the top guy in the only mainstream company in America and they have a built in fan base that isn't going anywhere because there isn't any worthwhile competition.

You could say the same thing about Hogan in the 80s. But you wouldn't, despite the fact that it's your own logic. Also, since the WWE wasn't the only game in town and was just an established "brand" in the late 90s, using your logic Rock and Austin weren't draws either.

 

[...god...]

Except when Hogan left the ratings for the WWF dropped and rose for WCW... and when Rock and Austin were established the ratings for the WWF rose... not that hard to grasp.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

I'm convinced he didn't read my initial post or lacks comprehension skills.

 

[Kaedon]

Yeah ok, please tell me the ratings for PRIME TIME when Hogan was there, as opposed to the first Raws. The reason the ratings went up was because there was competition.

But, again, according to Enzo, if you're the one national organization (WWF in the 80s), everything has to do with brands and not individual players. So it wasn't Hogan who was the draw, it was everyone else. Don't you understand? People came to see Tito Santana take on a jobber not Roddy Piper vs. Hogan.

 

[monkeystyle]

So it wasn't Hogan who was the draw, it was everyone else. Don't you understand? People came to see Tito Santana take on a jobber not Roddy Piper vs. Hogan.

reductio ad absurdum