What must be the ingredients of a five-star match?

[Jacob Fox]

But don't u think that even now, when in the Japanese promotions people too often kick out of finishers, and that's why they have super finishers, WWE is taking this like old times?

Sorry but I don't know what you mean by "taking this like old times."

Also, at Wm 31 Roman Reigns kicked out of 4 f5s by Lesnar, what's your take on that?

It was a correct thing to do to try and build Reigns up into the next big star. I thought it was the smart thing to do. But even though I REALLY like that match, I wouldn't rate it 5 stars. Maybe 4. And if the subject is what makes a five star match, I wouldn't think this match would be in that category. So it is sort of a moot point.

There are many matches that I would rate 5 stars that had absolutely no kick outs from finishers. There are some that I would. Now, I think that kicking out of a finisher can make a match good, but it's not a prerequisite for a five star match.

And actually, he was hit by 4 F5s, he technically only kicked out of 3. Lesnar hit the 4th F5 but did not cover Reigns. This was the moment where Seth Rollins came in.

 

[Shayon]

Sorry but I don't know what you mean by "taking this like old times."



It was a correct thing to do to try and build Reigns up into the next big star. I thought it was the smart thing to do. But even though I REALLY like that match, I wouldn't rate it 5 stars. Maybe 4. And if the subject is what makes a five star match, I wouldn't think this match would be in that category. So it is sort of a moot point.

There are many matches that I would rate 5 stars that had absolutely no kick outs from finishers. There are some that I would. Now, I think that kicking out of a finisher can make a match good, but it's not a prerequisite for a five star match.

And actually, he was hit by 4 F5s, he technically only kicked out of 3. Lesnar hit the 4th F5 but did not cover Reigns. This was the moment where Seth Rollins came in.

What I meant was that WWE is still treating matches like the 90's, u cannot kick out of the finishing move unless it's a quality match, and yes Lesnar didn't cover him, but he would've kicked out anyway, him not covering reigns was done to preserve the f5 as a finisher and to set up Rollins for a cheap win,

 

[Jacob Fox]

What I meant was that WWE is still treating matches like the 90's, u cannot kick out of the finishing move unless it's a quality match, and yes Lesnar didn't cover him, but he would've kicked out anyway, him not covering reigns was done to preserve the f5 as a finisher and to set up Rollins for a cheap win,

Eh, can't say I quite agree with that. We have no real idea what WWE would have done if they had decided to not have Rollins cash in. We can speculate, but we really don't know. With the negative backlash towards Reigns at the time, they may have decided to give the victory to Brock. Or, more likely, they would have had Lesnar not even hit the third F5 and just had Reigns pelt him with spears. I honestly don't think that having Reigns kick out of four F5s would really hurt the move anymore than kicking out of 3. The point was to make Reigns look strong, which they did.

I am split on whether or not it is a bad thing to only have wrestlers kick out of finishers in high profile matches. I mean, it sort of makes sense that a person's determination will push them further if the match means something. But on the other hand, it does make finishers seem pointless and inconsistent.

 

[edge4ever]

I do not think there is a template to a five star match. Star ratings are subjective, but they actually go beyond just being subjective.

I think the only thing that truly makes a 5 star match is emotional investment. For example, I am reviewing all the best matches of the year before I vote for the PWI Match of the Year Award. So far, Okada vs Tanahashi at the dome show is leading. But is that because Okada is my favorite wrestler? Or is it because Okada is my favorite wrestler yet Tanahashi is easily the BEST wrestler in the world (IMO)?

All I can say is this, a five star match is a match that suspends your disbelief. It is when you look at a match and you know it is predetermined, but the performers are doing such a good job that you HONESTLY don't know who will win. You forget for a moment that you are watching performance art and you are pulled into the match and believe the guys are really fighting.

It doesn't need to have guys kick out of finishers. It doesn't need to show moves you have never seen before. But it needs two performers who are able to suck you into the match and make you believe you are watching a real fight.

But it is still subjective. It is sometimes hard to get sucked into a match if you feel nothing for the participants. So it's not really a question that you can easily answer. But regardless of your criteria, if you can truly get lost in the match and believe what you are watching is real, I think that is the most important element of all.

Ehhhhhhhhhhh, normally I always agree with you Jacob, and even though any match is obvsiously subjective, not just 5 star matches, I do feel that a 5 star match (match of the year, whatever you wanna call it) generally follows the template I gave above. Sure it may vary and alter at times, but the general feel of the match tends to go that way. And, if you look at most of cenas matches, as an example, they're almost just like that more often than not.

And I've wrestled before and there's usually templates for "bigger" main events or matches. The guidelines those matches tend to follow, like a Shawn vs taker kind of match, tend to lean towards the template I outlined above.

It's not to say that we can have one off amazing matches that follow the general technical outline of how a match should go, of course you can. But the main events with guys like cena and styles fighting usually looks for pops and crowd involvement by following the "5 star template"

 

[Shayon]

Eh, can't say I quite agree with that. We have no real idea what WWE would have done if they had decided to not have Rollins cash in. We can speculate, but we really don't know. With the negative backlash towards Reigns at the time, they may have decided to give the victory to Brock. Or, more likely, they would have had Lesnar not even hit the third F5 and just had Reigns pelt him with spears. I honestly don't think that having Reigns kick out of four F5s would really hurt the move anymore than kicking out of 3. The point was to make Reigns look strong, which they did.

I am split on whether or not it is a bad thing to only have wrestlers kick out of finishers in high profile matches. I mean, it sort of makes sense that a person's determination will push them further if the match means something. But on the other hand, it does make finishers seem pointless and inconsistent.

Ummm, no, I disagree on the last point, kicking out of finishers doesn't make them seem pointless, coz the end of the match is done with the same finisher, like rock vs cena, punk vs cena, taker vs hbk, each one of those classics ended with the wrestler hitting the same finisher that was previously kicked out of, and No, that didn't make them seem pointless, instead, that made the other guy seem much more strong

 

[Pop Tatari]

people get so irate at something that in all honesty does not matter, in the same way a Oscar for a film is. A good match is good match at the end of the day without the accolades bullshit . Rating matches is for geeks.

 

[Zardnaar]

Kicking out of finishers makes the wrestlers look weak. It should be used very rarely. It took six years before someone broke Bret Harts Sharpshooter, a DDT form Jake the Snake was game over but now a DDT may as well be a chop to the chest.

They over did the kick ot of finishers at Summer Slam with Cena/AJ.

 

[Jacob Fox]

Ummm, no, I disagree on the last point, kicking out of finishers doesn't make them seem pointless, coz the end of the match is done with the same finisher, like rock vs cena, punk vs cena, taker vs hbk, each one of those classics ended with the wrestler hitting the same finisher that was previously kicked out of, and No, that didn't make them seem pointless, instead, that made the other guy seem much more strong

You can absolutely disagree, but that just proves my point that the whole thing is subjective. I don't think hitting a finisher 4 times with the opponent kicking out of the first three and then winning with the fourth indicates that the finisher is any more impactful than any other move. Hitting most any move four times on someone will take a toll.

 

[Jacob Fox]

Kicking out of finishers makes the wrestlers look weak. It should be used very rarely. It took six years before someone broke Bret Harts Sharpshooter, a DDT form Jake the Snake was game over but now a DDT may as well be a chop to the chest.

They over did the kick ot of finishers at Summer Slam with Cena/AJ.

And that's another point. Sometimes a move that is a finisher for one wrestler can be executed the same by another wrestler yet not be a finisher. I've always found that to be silly.

 

[Grievous 3D]

~ Great "Performers"
~ Good Storytelling
~ High Stakes
~ A Hot Crowd

 

[Shayon]

Kicking out of finishers makes the wrestlers look weak. It should be used very rarely. It took six years before someone broke Bret Harts Sharpshooter, a DDT form Jake the Snake was game over but now a DDT may as well be a chop to the chest.

They over did the kick ot of finishers at Summer Slam with Cena/AJ.

I don't think they overdid it, look at the results, that match was awesome, also they only did two kick outs of finishers which is a good way to put both of them over considering they got only 23 minutes to go

 

[Shayon]

And that's another point. Sometimes a move that is a finisher for one wrestler can be executed the same by another wrestler yet not be a finisher. I've always found that to be silly.

That used to happen so much during the hulk hogan days, for example hogan's leg drop, warrior's splash, jake's ddt, but nowadays that's not the way, now for a new wrestler, the finisher should not only be unique but must look devastating too

 

[Zardnaar]

That used to happen so much during the hulk hogan days, for example hogan's leg drop, warrior's splash, jake's ddt, but nowadays that's not the way, now for a new wrestler, the finisher should not only be unique but must look devastating too

Hogans one sucked, DDT was basic but looked good and it often came out of no where.

Rocks peoples elbow is also lame.

The pedigree is reasonable simple/safe to do although HHH botched it once (or the person in it did).

 

[Shayon]

Hogans one sucked, DDT was basic but looked good and it often came out of no where.

Rocks peoples elbow is also lame.

The pedigree is reasonable simple/safe to do although HHH botched it once (or the person in it did).

Actually, a basic move can also be used, but u have to build it strong, like sting's scorpion death drop, basic, but looks awesome

 

[Psycho Rangers]

In my opinion, one necessary ingredient is that the workers in the match (be it two or more) MUST be able to work together almost flawlessly. They have to know what fluidly works together of their two styles, inside and out, and what moves would be perfect to build up a buzzing crowd reaction.