What must be the ingredients of a five-star match?

[Shayon]

In my opinion, one necessary ingredient is that the workers in the match (be it two or more) MUST be able to work together almost flawlessly. They have to know what fluidly works together of their two styles, inside and out, and what moves would be perfect to build up a buzzing crowd reaction.

How'd u finish such a match?

 

[Psycho Rangers]

How'd u finish such a match?

Honestly I'm not the best guy to ask, BUT if I was in control of a storyline between two guys trying to earn such a distinction...
Have a clear storyline and a clear conflict between the two competitors, and have spots that make sense in terms of the storyline.
Think, for example, in terms of Ramon v. Michaels at WrestleMania X--a legit five star match--good tension between the two with a clear conflict, great spots, and a slow build to a miraculous finish in their ladder match.

 

[Shayon]

Honestly I'm not the best guy to ask, BUT if I was in control of a storyline between two guys trying to earn such a distinction...
Have a clear storyline and a clear conflict between the two competitors, and have spots that make sense in terms of the storyline.
Think, for example, in terms of Ramon v. Michaels at WrestleMania X--a legit five star match--good tension between the two with a clear conflict, great spots, and a slow build to a miraculous finish in their ladder match.

I'd like to know, in your opinion, what are the factors that must be there in a 5 star match? Also, would u plz comment on the quality of in-ring work in such a match?

 

[Psycho Rangers]

I'd like to know, in your opinion, what are the factors that must be there in a 5 star match? Also, would u plz comment on the quality of in-ring work in such a match?

Again, honestly, I'm not too sure of all of them and I don't think I could convey them properly lol.
However in the match that I mentioned, Ramon v. Michaels, is one of my favorite ladder matches of all time (with one of the others being Van Dam v. Hardy at SummerSlam for the Hardcore title). Mostly due to the combination of ring prowess with the merciless (yet creative) uses of the ladder in the match.

 

[Snowman1]

Meltzer is likely biased against WWE in regards to 5 star matches especially since WCW died. He seemed to like Bret and Shawn.

I have not seen some of Meltzers other 5 star matches but the WWF/E matches he has awarded them to do deserve them. There are only maybe 2 other matches I would award them to (Shawn vs Undertaker).

In addition to what some of the others have said you need chemistry between the wrestlers as well. I would also add you can rememebr the match 20 years later. For example I remember these ones.

Owen vs Bret
Kanes debut
Austin and Hart double turn with Austin passing out bleeding.
Razor Ramon/HBK ladder match.

Those are the classic matches of the 90's IMHO.

I kinda disagree, he's possibly biased when it comes to the real "5 star matches", but there's been so many 4 stars handed out to WWE over the last couple of years.

With Solid Snake on this one... Probably the closest to 5 stars I've seen recently was Sasha/Bayley in Brooklyn due to the amazing level of emotion and all it did for the characters + women's wrestling as a whole. There were some memorable spots. The action was spectacular and there were some memorable spots - that poisoned rana, geez! - but yeah, I'd totally vote that the story and emotion of the match, whether it's Okada defeating the Ace that he couldn't beat, or Rey Mysterio pinning the God-controlled Giant most of the roster can't even knock down, or Brock Lesnar turning Cena into a rainbow-colored stain on the canvas - makes a whole lot more of a difference than "just great action"

 

[Zardnaar]

I kinda disagree, he's possibly biased when it comes to the real "5 star matches", but there's been so many 4 stars handed out to WWE over the last couple of years.

With Solid Snake on this one... Probably the closest to 5 stars I've seen recently was Sasha/Bayley in Brooklyn due to the amazing level of emotion and all it did for the characters + women's wrestling as a whole. There were some memorable spots. The action was spectacular and there were some memorable spots - that poisoned rana, geez! - but yeah, I'd totally vote that the story and emotion of the match, whether it's Okada defeating the Ace that he couldn't beat, or Rey Mysterio pinning the God-controlled Giant most of the roster can't even knock down, or Brock Lesnar turning Cena into a rainbow-colored stain on the canvas - makes a whole lot more of a difference than "just great action"

That was match of the year wasn't it?

Persoanlly I almost agree with Meltzer there is maybe 3 or 4 matches from WWF/WWE I would say were 5 star where he might be slightly wrong.

Its not like he gave WCW any after Hogan arrived.

 

[Shayon]

Again, honestly, I'm not too sure of all of them and I don't think I could convey them properly lol.
However in the match that I mentioned, Ramon v. Michaels, is one of my favorite ladder matches of all time (with one of the others being Van Dam v. Hardy at SummerSlam for the Hardcore title). Mostly due to the combination of ring prowess with the merciless (yet creative) uses of the ladder in the match.

But that match was way back in Wm x, if Meltzer would've evaluated the same match today, would he still give it a 5 star rating, considering the fact that, he didn't give taker vs hbk and angle vs hbk matches a 5 star?

 

[Shayon]

I kinda disagree, he's possibly biased when it comes to the real "5 star matches", but there's been so many 4 stars handed out to WWE over the last couple of years.

With Solid Snake on this one... Probably the closest to 5 stars I've seen recently was Sasha/Bayley in Brooklyn due to the amazing level of emotion and all it did for the characters + women's wrestling as a whole. There were some memorable spots. The action was spectacular and there were some memorable spots - that poisoned rana, geez! - but yeah, I'd totally vote that the story and emotion of the match, whether it's Okada defeating the Ace that he couldn't beat, or Rey Mysterio pinning the God-controlled Giant most of the roster can't even knock down, or Brock Lesnar turning Cena into a rainbow-colored stain on the canvas - makes a whole lot more of a difference than "just great action"

Yeah, he's given out a lot of 4-4.5 stars for WWE, and they all deserved it, but in the case of 5 star matches, I also think he's a little biased for WWE,

 

[Psycho Rangers]

But that match was way back in Wm x, if Meltzer would've evaluated the same match today, would he still give it a 5 star rating, considering the fact that, he didn't give taker vs hbk and angle vs hbk matches a 5 star?

Touche. Good point.

 

[Shayon]

Touche. Good point.

Again he rated punk vs cena match 4.5, in my opinion it should've been 5, what's your take?

 

[WholeFN'Moe]

And for the facts, Meltzer's latest 5 star rating of a WWE match was way back in 2011 at money in the bank, ironically that match was punk vs cena too,

To be honest, I'm not sure why all the hate on Dave Meltzer as of late or on here.

Meltzer completely legitimized Wrestling Journalism, and has been consistently solid for about 30 years. He has the respect of all of his peers who all also say he is the best and also is respected by Stone Cold, Jericho, Colt Cabana, Mick Foley and plenty of other people this sub holds dear.

Just because a few sources lie to him within the last year or so doesn't make him an idiot, liar or scumbag.

The Observer is one of maybe 3 sites that uses real sources from the industry since those sources respect Meltzer highly and are willing to speak to him and The Observer is probably the most respected and legitimate site or news letter in the industry period. He is the reporter with the most resemblance to any kind of journalistic standards.

Meltzer was able to be in the business and do what we all love without being a slave to any promoter or company, became his own boss and was very successful at it and thanks to him all of the others were able to do so as well & probably wouldn't have even had the idea if it wasn't for him building his own brand.

Dude knows what he is talking about and there are perfectly good reasons why those matches didn't make 5 stars. Mostly because Dave isn't a slave to the WWE brand and just because the match happens in WWE doesn't give it anymore credibility than any other match. The match itself is what speaks to Dave, not names... regardless of whether or not it is the popular opinion.

There have been alot of Pro Wrestling matches in history.... ALOT and it's pretty hard to compare to some of those Japanese guys who invent crazy sequences and hit them perfectly every single time while telling an amazing story at the same time. Some guys in NXT might have some cool looking spots but don't put them in the right places and use no psychology. The guys are way to concerned with flipping around these days and move WAY to quick to tell any kind of story.

It's not easy to wrestle a perfect match. You pretty much have to be 2 very close individuals working as one machine and be able to read each others minds almost... It's like dancing but 10 times harder. Dave looks at this in addition to how the guys pulled everything off, when and where every move was placed, if those moves were all hit perfectly, if every bump taken was a perfect bump, if every single sequence in the matches awed him and were like nothing he has ever seen before, if the match had a perfect pace and if the fans were all into the match and they were able to tell an incredible story LIKE NO OTHER.

I'm not saying I agree with everything he says or that those matches you mentioned weren't awesome but even if I see a match and it is one of the best matches I have ever seen in my life, that still doesn't mean it is even 5 stars. It may have just had an excellent story or a few amazing spots that I never seen before but maybe it didn't have every single one of those things I mentioned and in perfect form at that. That is what every professional wrestler should strive to do... in every match. That's not easy to do with Vince McMahon breathing down your neck and giving you a specific way to wrestle, the same style of wrestling in every single match, on every single show.

I've been watching wrestling since 1991 and have been a follower of Dave almost since he began as well. I hope that one day I could do something even close to what he was able to do in the business while making a good living.

 

[Shayon]

To be honest, I'm not sure why all the hate on Dave Meltzer as of late or on here.

Meltzer completely legitimized Wrestling Journalism, and has been consistently solid for about 30 years. He has the respect of all of his peers who all also say he is the best and also is respected by Stone Cold, Jericho, Colt Cabana, Mick Foley and plenty of other people this sub holds dear.

Just because a few sources lie to him within the last year or so doesn't make him an idiot, liar or scumbag.

The Observer is one of maybe 3 sites that uses real sources from the industry since those sources respect Meltzer highly and are willing to speak to him and The Observer is probably the most respected and legitimate site or news letter in the industry period. He is the reporter with the most resemblance to any kind of journalistic standards.

Meltzer was able to be in the business and do what we all love without being a slave to any promoter or company, became his own boss and was very successful at it and thanks to him all of the others were able to do so as well & probably wouldn't have even had the idea if it wasn't for him building his own brand.

Dude knows what he is talking about and there are perfectly good reasons why those matches didn't make 5 stars. Mostly because Dave isn't a slave to the WWE brand and just because the match happens in WWE doesn't give it anymore credibility than any other match. The match itself is what speaks to Dave, not names... regardless of whether or not it is the popular opinion.

There have been alot of Pro Wrestling matches in history.... ALOT and it's pretty hard to compare to some of those Japanese guys who invent crazy sequences and hit them perfectly every single time while telling an amazing story at the same time. Some guys in NXT might have some cool looking spots but don't put them in the right places and use no psychology. The guys are way to concerned with flipping around these days and move WAY to quick to tell any kind of story.

It's not easy to wrestle a perfect match. You pretty much have to be 2 very close individuals working as one machine and be able to read each others minds almost... It's like dancing but 10 times harder. Dave looks at this in addition to how the guys pulled everything off, when and where every move was placed, if those moves were all hit perfectly, if every bump taken was a perfect bump, if every single sequence in the matches awed him and were like nothing he has ever seen before, if the match had a perfect pace and if the fans were all into the match and they were able to tell an incredible story LIKE NO OTHER.

I'm not saying I agree with everything he says or that those matches you mentioned weren't awesome but even if I see a match and it is one of the best matches I have ever seen in my life, that still doesn't mean it is even 5 stars. It may have just had an excellent story or a few amazing spots that I never seen before but maybe it didn't have every single one of those things I mentioned and in perfect form at that. That is what every professional wrestler should strive to do... in every match. That's not easy to do with Vince McMahon breathing down your neck and giving you a specific way to wrestle, the same style of wrestling in every single match, on every single show.

I've been watching wrestling since 1991 and have been a follower of Dave almost since he began as well. I hope that one day I could do something even close to what he was able to do in the business while making a good living.

Wow bro! i truly appreciate your comments, and ur thoughts too, but i or the others never wanted to put down mr. meltzer or disrespect him in any way, rather the sole reason that we're discussing this whole thread with 70+ comments is that we respect him, and do take his ratings as a legitimate source of near-perfect matches, that's why we pay so much attention to his ratings! go all over the internet, and u'll find guys telling, they don't give a damn to meltzer, but we're not like them, meltzer should be respected for all his accomplishments and that's what we do, respect him! it's just that, we couldn't find some rational explanations for some of his recent actions, like rating punk vs cena at mitb 2011 a full 5 stars, and punk vs cena at raw 2013 only 4.5. Like u mentioned, if the names, or the company of the match doesn't matter, and the match speaks for itself, then for sure the punk-cena match from raw would've got a 5 star rating, not taking away anything from punk-cena at mitb

 

[WholeFN'Moe]

people get so irate at something that in all honesty does not matter, in the same way a Oscar for a film is. A good match is good match at the end of the day without the accolades bullshit . Rating matches is for geeks.

Wrestling is for geeks

Wow bro! i truly appreciate your comments, and ur thoughts too, but i or the others never wanted to put down mr. meltzer or disrespect him in any way, rather the sole reason that we're discussing this whole thread with 70+ comments is that we respect him, and do take his ratings as a legitimate source of near-perfect matches, that's why we pay so much attention to his ratings! go all over the internet, and u'll find guys telling, they don't give a damn to meltzer, but we're not like them, meltzer should be respected for all his accomplishments and that's what we do, respect him! it's just that, we couldn't find some rational explanations for some of his recent actions, like rating punk vs cena at mitb 2011 a full 5 stars, and punk vs cena at raw 2013 only 4.5. Like u mentioned, if the names, or the company of the match doesn't matter, and the match speaks for itself, then for sure the punk-cena match from raw would've got a 5 star rating, not taking away anything from punk-cena at mitb

That was a great match... great story told in the ring as well as outside the ring because they put stuff when & where it was supposed to go but Cena isn't the most coordinated guy that being said. 4
Don't get me wrong, he might hit some cool moves & spots but if you watch the way he lands you'll cringe sometimes. He tries though & I appreciate that very much because like I said great story told & great match that gave people their moneys worth...

I'm not saying I care a whole lot about those things, but it does count, especially when you watch some other guys around the world, like in Mexico or Japan. Then again, as I said, alot of those guys are just doing flips around the ring for the sake of doing flips around the ring.... anybody can do that. You need it all ...all together in one perfect blend, lol. It's not easy.

Don't get me wrong, Cena isn't the most graceful guy but having him gone and having to put up with Roman Reigns is bloody murder. Roman makes him look like Shawn Michaels in every single way. Maybe that's because he wasn't even trained for 3 months who knows.... I know people don't agree because everybody decides they just want to jump on the "hate Cena bandwagon" now because it's the cool thing to do.... when really right now is when we should be wanting him to stay. Atleast Cena could tell a bit of a story... He's not my favorite guy or the guy I would pick to be the face of the company but right now.... if Cena DOES leave that spot to Roman, that's going to be one boring show.

 

[Shayon]

Wrestling is for geeks


That was a great match... great story told in the ring as well as outside the ring because they put stuff when & where it was supposed to go but Cena isn't the most coordinated guy that being said. 4
Don't get me wrong, he might hit some cool moves & spots but if you watch the way he lands you'll cringe sometimes. He tries though & I appreciate that very much because like I said great story told & great match that gave people their moneys worth...

I'm not saying I care a whole lot about those things, but it does count, especially when you watch some other guys around the world, like in Mexico or Japan. Then again, as I said, alot of those guys are just doing flips around the ring for the sake of doing flips around the ring.... anybody can do that. You need it all ...all together in one perfect blend, lol. It's not easy.

Don't get me wrong, Cena isn't the most graceful guy but having him gone and having to put up with Roman Reigns is bloody murder. Roman makes him look like Shawn Michaels in every single way. Maybe that's because he wasn't even trained for 3 months who knows.... I know people don't agree because everybody decides they just want to jump on the "hate Cena bandwagon" now because it's the cool thing to do.... when really right now is when we should be wanting him to stay. Atleast Cena could tell a bit of a story... He's not my favorite guy or the guy I would pick to be the face of the company but right now.... if Cena DOES leave that spot to Roman, that's going to be one boring show.

Ummm, sorry bro, can't agree with u, Cena may sometimes land awkwardly, that's bcoz he is not super good at taking tremendous bumps, that being said, let me remind u that a few botches doesn't take anything away from a classic match, instead it gives a more realistic flavor to the match, telling the story that the wrestlers r indeed tired from going through hell to win this match, their bodies are battered, but they still won't give up, coz this match means something to both of them. So, Cena may botch moves sometimes, but that doesn't change the fact that cena is the only guy except cm punk, that has put on 5 star caliber matches year after year since his match with hbk on raw in 2007, and despite the fans chanting u can't wrestle, he proves them wrong on a consistent basis, not only that but, he has shut them up from good, so much that no body now has the audacity to chant u can't wrestle to him again! With all due respect to the legends of the business, if u think closely, I think, there will be no match for cena in terms of putting at least three wrestling clinical matches each year, for about 10 years now! Think about it brother, and one more thing, reigns is not a wrestler, he's nowhere even close to a wrestler! He is just a big, hairy Sammoan power house, that Vince so desperately wants to replace cena with, but Mark my words, he will never ever be anything even close to John Cena! And that is only as a in ring worker, let alone the whole package

 

[WholeFN'Moe]

Ummm, sorry bro, can't agree with u, Cena may sometimes land awkwardly, that's bcoz he is not super good at taking tremendous bumps, that being said, let me remind u that a few botches doesn't take anything away from a classic match, instead it gives a more realistic flavor to the match, telling the story that the wrestlers r indeed tired from going through hell to win this match, their bodies are battered, but they still won't give up, coz this match means something to both of them. So, Cena may botch moves sometimes, but that doesn't change the fact that cena is the only guy except cm punk, that has put on 5 star caliber matches year after year since his match with hbk on raw in 2007, and despite the fans chanting u can't wrestle, he proves them wrong on a consistent basis, not only that but, he has shut them up from good, so much that no body now has the audacity to chant u can't wrestle to him again! With all due respect to the legends of the business, if u think closely, I think, there will be no match for cena in terms of putting at least three wrestling clinical matches each year, for about 10 years now! Think about it brother, and one more thing, reigns is not a wrestler, he's nowhere even close to a wrestler! He is just a big, hairy Sammoan power house, that Vince so desperately wants to replace cena with, but Mark my words, he will never ever be anything even close to John Cena! And that is only as a in ring worker, let alone the whole package

How can I "think closely" ?

Anyway "that's bcoz he is not super good at taking tremendous bumps" Right, and that's all I'm saying and granted while it does take away a little in fact....
As I said it doesn't take alot away for me but that's what professionals rate the match for. Every single thing.

As far as what you said about Roman replacing Cena... you got that right %100