What If? - The Screwjob Never Happened

[Jacob Fox]

This is just beating a dead horse at this point now...

Agreed. I am bowing out simply because I think my last post really is how I feel and nothing is going to change that.

 

[Jacob Fox]

Agreed. I am bowing out simply because I think my last post really is how I feel and nothing is going to change that.

Just to elaborate, I don't think I can add anything more to the conversation. I stated my position and my reasons for feeling the way I do. I don't think this thread is going to change anyone's mind. So it's best to move on to other posts to talk about.

 

[bullyballmm]

n regards to evidence, the default position is that the Screwjob was real. This is not me saying that it was, just that it is more accepted in the wrestling community being real.

By "wrestling community" do you primarily mean fans or the industry? Because if the former than you have to keep in mind that a lot of fans were young at the time of the screwjob, and the communities sophistication re: determining whether something is a shoot or a work has changed over time. A person who saw the screwjob when they were a young fan would be much harder to convince that the screwjob was a work. Hell I bet if Vince decided to come out and announce it was a work tomorrow some people would still be sceptical and just accuse him of working us with that statement to create controversy/get views (which is sorta fair, I would be sceptical too if that were to happen). People don't want their childhood ruined.

But likely the only people who truly know if it was fake or real are Bret Hart and Vince McMahon

This is my position. I came into this thread thinking Montreal was real, but I think I've worked myself into believing it is a work after playing Devil's Advocate. But at the end of the day I don't care, I was a toddler when it happened and if it was a shoot or a work, the impact of it is what matters (and the memes are funny). I just don't like it when somebody is adamant it is, was and always will be a (sharp)shoot(er)

 

[Jacob Fox]

As much as I know Bret was pissed off and if it was real, what Vince and Earl did was horrible. Absolutely fucking horrible to do that to someone. It still is probably the definitive moment in wrestling history. I mean, the Screwjob is more recognized than Hulk Hogan slamming Andre the Giant. But it absolutely changed pro wrestling forever.

When I saw wrestling community, I mean everyone.. the wrestlers, the promoters, us, fans who don't talk on the forums. Anyone who is involved as a worker or a fan.

I just don't like it when somebody is adamant it is, was and always will be a (sharp)shoot(er) :emoji_slight_smile:

Yeah, but that's never going to stop. A belief is one of the hardest things to change.

 

[DualShock]

Sorry I missed out on some stuff that was directed toward me.

In regards to evidence, the default position is that the Screwjob was real. This is not me saying that it was, just that it is more accepted in the wrestling community being real.

Now Base no one can prove your statement wrong, but that doesn't mean your statement is right. Basic logic is that you cannot prove a negative. It's like God. Rather than finding proof that God exists, many theists say that he exists unless it is proven that he doesn't. This is silly because then we have to except that leprechauns, unicorns, Transformers and demonic pinatas exist simply because we cannot prove that they don't.

So, no one can prove your statement false. But that doesn't make it true. There are two options:

1. The screwjob was real and provide evidence for it being real.

2. The screwjob was a work and provide evidence for it being a work.

We do not rest on these following statements because are illogical:

1. If you cannot provide evidence of the screwjob being a work, then it is must be real.

2. if you cannot provide evidence of the screwjob being real, then it must be a work.

The statement that I think Base made, but I am not sure if was him or someone else. I don't really want to go back through all of these posts. But likely the only people who truly know if it was fake or real are Bret Hart and Vince McMahon. As I have mentioned, I believe it was real for the reasons that I posted previously. However, I do accept the fact that those observations are not conclusive. However, I think a preponderance of the evidence points toit being real. But we really may never have a conclusive answer from Hart or McMahon.

To sum up all my posts in one short sentence:
I believe it's real because everybody benefited from it

By "wrestling community" do you primarily mean fans or the industry? Because if the former than you have to keep in mind that a lot of fans were young at the time of the screwjob, and the communities sophistication re: determining whether something is a shoot or a work has changed over time. A person who saw the screwjob when they were a young fan would be much harder to convince that the screwjob was a work. Hell I bet if Vince decided to come out and announce it was a work tomorrow some people would still be sceptical and just accuse him of working us with that statement to create controversy/get views (which is sorta fair, I would be sceptical too if that were to happen). People don't want their childhood ruined.

Not only that. The Screwjob was typical Vince Russo booking/writing who started to get more and more control but at the time not many fans knew that and were not used to that crash TV, swerves on WWE TV so they were confused about the Screwjob and the aftermath (many fans didn't know that he was the man behind many Attitude Era ideas until it was revealed online that WCW hired WWEs writers. Many fans at that time were not even online and had no idea who he was until he arrived in WCW as "Vince McMahon's best kept secret" and did those worked shoots.
I'm not saying Russo was involved in the Screwjob directly but he gave maybe McMahon some ideas at the meeting

This is just beating a dead horse at this point now...

Every comment in a thread about classic wrestling is beating a dead horse.

 

[Jacob Fox]

To sum up all my posts in one short sentence:
I believe it's real because everybody benefited from it

Shouldn't this say "I believe it was a work because everybody benefited from it." ? A bit of a Freudian slip there.

 

[InsaneAlphaBeta]

-Me entering thread to see the discussion-

-sees whats happened in this thread-

 

[Jay-Ashley]

Every comment in a thread about classic wrestling is beating a dead horse.

To some extent, but when it is just three or four people saying the same ole shit over and over and over that is beating a dead horse as everyone involved looks like a bickering child.

 

[DualShock]

Shouldn't this say "I believe it was a work because everybody benefited from it." ? A bit of a Freudian slip there.

My bad. But no Freudian slip, more like a mistake because the terms work and real are used too much in this thread

 

[Jacob Fox]

My bad. But no Freudian slip, more like a mistake because the terms work and real are used too much in this thread

Oh don't worry, I wasn't really implying you actually believed it was real. A freudian slip doesn't always mean you let out something you believe. A Freudian slip can also be because the words were in your mind so you put the wrong one down. Since we keep talking "real" and "fake" sometimes we slip and put the wrong word out.

And I was just joshing you. We may not agree on this but I do admire you being steadfast in defending your opinion.

 

[InsaneAlphaBeta]

I must admit, i havent really gone through the entire thread to see all of the discussion thats taken place, but perhaps i figured id take my on look at what would have happened and maybe shed some light on what knowledge i do have after seeing the story frome countless perspectives.

firslt i highly recommend listening to this, Jim and Dave Meltzer talk about the screwjob and all that it was and its a facisnateing listen. It starts at 26:27 (Thats when Jim introduces meltzer and they dive right into it)



There are so many details and things that could have happened as a result of it never happeneding, so many countless different directions things could have went, so right now i cant even begin to guess, but i can atleast share that video which like i said is a great listen.

I will likely post my own theory on what would have happened a bit later.

 

[DualShock]

Oh don't worry, I wasn't really implying you actually believed it was real. A freudian slip doesn't always mean you let out something you believe. A Freudian slip can also be because the words were in your mind so you put the wrong one down. Since we keep talking "real" and "fake" sometimes we slip and put the wrong word out.

And I was just joshing you. We may not agree on this but I do admire you being steadfast in defending your opinion.

For me there are just some things that doesn't make sense so I just wanted to know what explanation the people have who claim it's real so maybe that makes me look stubborn or beating a dead horse

 

[Jacob Fox]

For me there are just some things that doesn't make sense so I just wanted to know what explanation the people have who claim it's real so maybe that makes me look stubborn or beating a dead horse

Pfft. I am stubborn as a herd of mules. I respect stubborn people.

 

[InsaneAlphaBeta]

For me there are just some things that doesn't make sense so I just wanted to know what explanation the people have who claim it's real so maybe that makes me look stubborn or beating a dead horse

-me pointing to the podcast i linked above-

 

[bullyballmm]

I really think you guys should go back and just look at what me and DualShock said, I just want proper counterpoints to the points I raised.

I don't buy the "the community has considered it being a shoot therefore that should be the default position that the evidence has to prove against/saying the work should be the default position is asking for pro-shooters to prove a negative". Reasons why:

a) Because we are not asking this question the day after the MS, instead over 20 years later, we have allowed a default position to develop for no good reason. If the rule is that all wrestling events are works unless proved otherwise, then that should apply to any event, without nostalgia/the uneducated views of the masses (yes I'm sounding elitist, but I'm trying to prove a point) interfering with this principle.

b) I could equally argue that saying "prove the MS was not a shoot" is a negative.

The only default position really is that it happened. Nobody can deny the existence of the Montreal Screwjob. We are just debating over how it went down.