The Lost generation

[MikeRaw]

After looking it up, I was actually wrong about when Bret Hart started wrestling. He started in 1976, and I thought it was 79, making it 15 years actually. Shawn Michaels started in 1984 and won the belt in 1996, so it did in fact take him 12 years.

Are you fucking joking me? You're using how long it took them based on when they started wrestling? In that case, MVP has taken 7 years so far. But if we're judging how long it took someone to win the WWE title, you don't juudge it on how long they were wrestling before they won it, you base it on how long they were wrestling IN THAT COMPANY before they won it. What you're saying, by judging guys from before they got in WWE, doesn't make sense. So if I start wrestling in indy's tommorow, and work there for 25 years, and then go to WWE, and win the WWE title in my first debut, it took me 25 years to win the WWE title? No, it took 1.

Since I did say MVP has only been on television for 2 years, then I will go by when Bret and Shawn entered the WWE. Bret Hart debuted in 1984, and won the belt in 1992. So it wasn’t 6 years like you are trying to say, it was 8. Shawn Michaels debuted in 1988 and won the belt in 96, so it was indeed 8 years for him. So even if we shed off the extra 5 years from both guys, my argument still stands.

Firstly, thank you for correcting yourself. Secondly, no, youra rgument doesn't still stand, because like I said, the fact that Bret took 8 years to win the WWE title doesn't mean everyone else has to take that long. Again, if you just say you don't think MVP or Kennedy are ready to win titles and main event, I have no problem with that. That would be your opinion, and it's fine, but saying they can't main event just because someone else didn't is stupid. It's a different era now, with guys like Cena, Batista, Lesnar, Goldberg, etc winning it within a short time, and not waiting 8 years just because Bret Hart did. There' really nothing else to say. You don't think their ready? Perfectly fine with me, but saying they can't just because a specific other person didn't win it for X amount amount of time is laughable.

 

[Next Big Thing]

but saying they can't main event just because someone else didn't is stupid. It's a different era now, with guys like Cena, Batista, Lesnar, Goldberg, etc winning it within a short time, and not waiting 8 years just because Bret Hart did. There' really nothing else to say. You don't think their ready? Perfectly fine with me, but saying they can't just because a specific other person didn't win it for X amount amount of time is laughable.

I've already addressed all of this. With Cena, Batista and Lesnar, it was all because of the WWE NEEDED to create new main evneters. When MVP was first debuting, they were set main event wise.

I'm not saying because Bret Hart took 8 years then so should MVP. I already said that there is no set time, it's when the individual is ready. I bring up guys like HBK and Bret Hart because I find it silly that people are upset about MVP not being a main event guy yet, when in the past guys far more talented than MVP took a much longer time.

You want to talk about laughable, what I find laughable is that you have completely ignored what I said about Kennedy. Does that mean you agree with what I said and you admit you were wrong?

 

[MikeRaw]

I've already addressed all of this. With Cena, Batista and Lesnar, it was all because of the WWE NEEDED to create new main evneters. When MVP was first debuting, they were set main event wise.

See, there you go. Now you've brought up a valid point. Although I disagree, at least it has some logic. I think WWE needs new main eventers. I think Raw is getting pretty stale, and although it may be fine for the next little while here, with a main event cast of only Triple H, Cena, Batista, Michaels, Orton, and Show, you can only get so far. Now is a time when they could use another main event guy. It doesn't have to be a guy who can carry the company on their shoulders, like Batista and Cena, but a promotion can never hurt. But if you don't think they need new main eventers, that's cool and all, I just think they really, really do.

I'm not saying because Bret Hart took 8 years then so should MVP. I already said that there is no set time, it's when the individual is ready. I bring up guys like HBK and Bret Hart because I find it silly that people are upset about MVP not being a main event guy yet, when in the past guys far more talented than MVP took a much longer time.

Again, if you were so sure about him not being ready, there shouldn't be a need for a comparision to those guys at all. If you're certain he's not ready, why not just rest assured on that, instead of comparing two guys.

You want to talk about laughable, what I find laughable is that you have completely ignored what I said about Kennedy. Does that mean you agree with what I said and you admit you were wrong?

No, I was gonna get to it in a while, once the supplemental draft ended. But I guess I will now.

When exactly were those times? His popularity was growing in 06 and early 07, and they had him feud with the Undertaker, Batista (for the world title) and then win the MITB, which was basically a future title win. He got injured shortly after. What more were they supposed to do? When he came back around mid July, they had him injure one of the hottest guys in the WWE at the time, Bobby Lashley. While I have never seen this confirmed, the common belief is that Kennedy was the one that was supposed to be McMahon’s son, but he got suspended before they could make that happen. That would have been a monster push for Kennedy. When he came back he feuded with HBK and Ric Flair, two of the most popular guys in the company. Are you going to tell me that’s not a good push? And then he filmed a movie, and came back and was put in a feud against the man getting the most heat in the WWE. Is that not getting a push? Regal got suspended. Not the WWE’s fault. Kennedy got injured just a few months later. Not the WWE’s fault. So when Kennedy has only been on television for a few months at a time since getting injured after winning the MITB in 07, when were they supposed to push him into the main event?

You bring up some good points, that's for sure. Good job on some of those, but I have some other points when he could've been elevated big time. Firstly, yes, he feuded with Flair and HBK, but he looked like a bitch in all both of them. He was beaten, and chased away, multiple times during his feud with HBK, and although HBK is great, he wasn't even main eventing at the time anyway. Plus, like I said, he never got any steam going, and while just the fact of being in a feud is considered a step up to internet fans, because we know it's considered a push, to the "marks" that pack the arena, if he loses while facing a good opponent, it's nothing. Also, I would also say that when he lost his MITb to Edge, when he came back, he should've been placed ina feud with him immediately. At that time, Edge had won the title after cashing in on Taker, and Kennedy was drafted to SD. That would've been a great time to follow up. WWE has made efforts to start to push him, but each time, they've either not followed it up after he returns or something, or they have changed their mind mid-push. Hopefulyl it changes when he comes back this time.

 

[Airfixx]

Small point to add to the argument....

No-one seems to be considering the practice of letting guys have a crack in the main event whilst a worl title initially eludes them.

Look no further than the Rumble title shots.... A green as fuck Cena, Hardcore Holly FFS, Umaga, Kennedy a pre-IC title Razor Ramone even way back in '93...

They should have given MVP a losing effort against HHH last year (while he was still heel). I know all the smarks would have just complained about HH burying another up n' comer, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with a challenger losing on their first crack at the title. PLUS, as long as they look a credible threat, they get a world championship size rub from the main-man. (This would have worked perfectly in the case of Punk had they not made him Plan B for MITB last year.)

I just wish WWE would realise this (like they used to).

 

[Next Big Thing]

See, there you go. Now you've brought up a valid point.

It's a point I mentioned in my very first post. Are your reading skills not to good?

Although I disagree, at least it has some logic. I think WWE needs new main eventers. I think Raw is getting pretty stale, and although it may be fine for the next little while here, with a main event cast of only Triple H, Cena, Batista, Michaels, Orton, and Show, you can only get so far. Now is a time when they could use another main event guy. It doesn't have to be a guy who can carry the company on their shoulders, like Batista and Cena, but a promotion can never hurt. But if you don't think they need new main eventers, that's cool and all, I just think they really, really do.

I was referring to 2007, which is when you said that MVP should have started main eventing. At the time Jeff Hardy was on the verge of becoming a main eventer, Edge was just becoming a main stay in the main event, Orton had main evented before, but that's when his real big main event push started, then you also had Triple H coming back from an injury, the return of Chris Jericho, and of course there was Cena and Batista. So at the time there was really no need for anymore main event talent.

Again, if you were so sure about him not being ready, there shouldn't be a need for a comparision to those guys at all. If you're certain he's not ready, why not just rest assured on that, instead of comparing two guys.

I wasn't comparing two guys. I was trying to show you that there are far better wrestlers that have taken a lot longer than 2 and a half years to make it to the top. There are so few situations of a guy going straight to the top, and most of the time when it happens, it's because they are really lacking main event talent.

You bring up some good points, that's for sure. Good job on some of those, but I have some other points when he could've been elevated big time. Firstly, yes, he feuded with Flair and HBK, but he looked like a bitch in all both of them. He was beaten, and chased away, multiple times during his feud with HBK, and although HBK is great, he wasn't even main eventing at the time anyway. Plus, like I said, he never got any steam going, and while just the fact of being in a feud is considered a step up to internet fans, because we know it's considered a push, to the "marks" that pack the arena, if he loses while facing a good opponent, it's nothing.

He got chased away so he looked like a bitch? That's your argument? That just sounds like something that happens to heels all the time. Take last week on SD! with Edge and John Cena. You could say that Edge looked like a bitch, but what it really did was add to his cowardly heel character. I remember that HBK/Kennedy had 3 matches, and they split the first two, but I can't recall what happened in the final match. I do however remember that Kennedy eliminated HBK at the Royal Rumble that year. Your point about HBK not main eventing is pretty weak also. He's always a guy that is borderline main event, and anytime he is in a match, the fans care about it. So having Kennedy go up against one of the most popular stars in the WWE seems like a pretty good idea to me, as it can only bring him some heat. The last point I have to make on this is that this feud took place just a couple of months after he returned from suspension for steroids. He's lucky to have even had such a high profile feud so soon after that. Should they have had him winning the world title right after being suspended for steroids, and just 6 months after the Benoit incident and how the media blamed that on steroids?

Also, I would also say that when he lost his MITb to Edge, when he came back, he should've been placed ina feud with him immediately. At that time, Edge had won the title after cashing in on Taker, and Kennedy was drafted to SD. That would've been a great time to follow up.

Kennedy was on SD! when he got injured, and then he got drafted to Raw. So when he came back, he and Edge were on separate shows.

WWE has made efforts to start to push him, but each time, they've either not followed it up after he returns or something, or they have changed their mind mid-push. Hopefulyl it changes when he comes back this time.

I think what you mean to say is the WWE has made efforts to start to push him, but each time he has gotten suspended, injured, or the person he was in a feud with got suspended. None of that can be blamed on the WWE.

 

[MikeRaw]

Does this really even need to keep going? Lol. I'm pretty sure you've made some very good points, as have I, but I don't think we're going to meet on any "middle" ground. If you think these guys aren't ready,a nd you don't blame WWE for not pushing them, that's that. I think they could've been pushed a long, long time ago, and hopefully it'll happen soon, if at all.

 

[MikeRaw]

Oh, and another thing.... This doesn't even need to be a thing about pointing fingers at whose fault it is they're not pushed. Sure, I said I blame WWE for it in alot of ways, but the overall point was just to look back and see ow different things are now, when it looked like we had 3 (or at least 2) future main eventers coming up in WWE. I pointed a finger myself at why I think they aren't main eventers, but that's not meant to be the topic at hand here. It was just to look back at how we thought these gusy would be top superstars, and even though Kennedy has alot of fan support, none have really broken the ceiling yet.

 

[Next Big Thing]

Does this really even need to keep going? Lol. I'm pretty sure you've made some very good points, as have I, but I don't think we're going to meet on any "middle" ground. If you think these guys aren't ready,a nd you don't blame WWE for not pushing them, that's that. I think they could've been pushed a long, long time ago, and hopefully it'll happen soon, if at all.

Well if I continue to post on this forum, you will quickly find out how stubborn I am. So ya I could keep going, but I'll agree to leave it at what has been said.

 

[JurassicBonez]

Kennedy gets injured :/?

He won MITB and was planned to win the belt when he cashed it in, but fucked it all up.

He didn't fuck that up. That was the doctors and WWE's mistake, not his. He got a minor injury, and they thought his recovery time would be long, so they toke the case from him, only to find out it was a minor injury. That's hardly his fault. He could have worked right through it. He wasn't going to cash the case in for another 4 or 5 months anyway, maybe more. I don't remember when exactly this happened.

Shelton's found his spot in the company and even then yet again he has shown that he cannot bring a great deal to the belt he's been given. There were some great mid-card matches on SD last year, but after a good six months or so with the title STILL no-one gave a fuck about Shelton's character and he came out to virtual silence. This is all the proof the Shelton marks should need to impress on them that being "good in the ring" isn't enough.

Maybe I'm the only one that notices this, but his move set and what he does in the ring seems the be the way WWE wants him to get over. How does Orton get heat, he attacks the faces, does heel tactics and cuts promos on them and on the crowd. How does Edge get heat... same way. Miz and Morrison, Big Show, Jericho, list goes on.

How many times did Shelton talk during his title reign? How many heel tactics does he do? He has matches, that's it. He doesn't do anything to get heat, he hasn't been given enough opportunities to get heat. He comes out, has matches, and then leaves. He sneak attacked someone what 3 or 4 times during his reign? He cut what 2 or 3 promos during his reign? What does that tell you? That WWE wants him to get over by his moves and moves only.

 

[MikeRaw]

Well if I continue to post on this forum, you will quickly find out how stubborn I am. So ya I could keep going, but I'll agree to leave it at what has been said.

Well, if you continue to post at this forum, you'll figure out peopel will eventually just tune you out if you don't come up with new points. Hopefully it can be left at that, and we can get back to the point of the thread. it's not that I don't like a good argument, and you look like you're gonna be a good solid member here, who can make some good posts, but someone like you, who is clearly pretty smart, show be able to know when an argument is going in circles.

 

[JimmyD]

Small point to add to the argument....

No-one seems to be considering the practice of letting guys have a crack in the main event whilst a worl title initially eludes them.

Look no further than the Rumble title shots.... A green as fuck Cena, Hardcore Holly FFS, Umaga, Kennedy a pre-IC title Razor Ramone even way back in '93...

They should have given MVP a losing effort against HHH last year (while he was still heel). I know all the smarks would have just complained about HH burying another up n' comer, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with a challenger losing on their first crack at the title. PLUS, as long as they look a credible threat, they get a world championship size rub from the main-man. (This would have worked perfectly in the case of Punk had they not made him Plan B for MITB last year.)

I just wish WWE would realise this (like they used to).

Thank Christ someone else thinks this.

Look at The Rock's run before he finally won the title after his face turn: it took him over a year to win the damn thing and when he finally did it was amazing, because the WWE had teased, and teased, and teased until finally they delivered what the fans had been craving for so long. The first rule in wrestling booking is to tell the fans you're going to give them what they want, but then not give it to them until they're absolutely begging for it.

I genuinely think CM Punk would be an established main eventer by now if they'd have kept the strap off of him and had him chase the belt instead.

 

[Airfixx]

Re: Shelton....

Maybe I'm the only one that notices this, but his move set and what he does in the ring seems the be the way WWE wants him to get over.

They have no choice. He is weak on the mic and has fuck all charisma(*).

How does Orton get heat, he attacks the faces, does heel tactics and cuts promos on them and on the crowd. How does Edge get heat... same way. Miz and Morrison, Big Show, Jericho, list goes on.

Aside from Show (who's pretty damn mobile given his size) and Miz every one of those guys is wicked in the ring and LOL at the idea of Morrison being a mic/charisma guy... He's an athletic type and just happens to have a modicum of the stuff that Shelton doesn't (See my above statement marked '*').

How many times did Shelton talk during his title reign?

Since he was drafted to SD he's had more mic time than any other period I recall, tbhonest.... Not a lot granted, but aside from Vickie , Edge & HHH there's been fuck all mic-time for the rest of the roster (When's the last time we heard MVP on the mic for instance? ....And he's gold on the stick!)

How many heel tactics does he do? He has matches, that's it. He doesn't do anything to get heat, he hasn't been given enough opportunities to get heat. He comes out, has matches, and then leaves. He sneak attacked someone what 3 or 4 times during his reign? He cut what 2 or 3 promos during his reign? What does that tell you? That WWE wants him to get over by his moves and moves only.

On the contrary, as I've already said at the beginning of this post, WWE aren't relying on his in-ring skills by choice.... By now Shelton would have proved to them that he can do the non-ring stuff (IF indeed he could) and would have progressed in the company... Which, considering the time he's been in the company, he hasn't.

 

[Airfixx]

Thank Christ someone else thinks this.

Look at The Rock's run before he finally won the title after his face turn: it took him over a year to win the damn thing and when he finally did it was amazing, because the WWE had teased, and teased, and teased until finally they delivered what the fans had been craving for so long. The first rule in wrestling booking wrestling is to tell the fans you're going to give them what they want, but don't give it to them until they're absolutely begging for it.

...Also applies to Foley, Austin, HHH, HBK & many other greats.

I genuinely think CM Punk would be an established main eventer by now if they'd have kept the strap off of him and had him chase the belt instead.

I'd agree it defo set him back a lot and I think that's what all the grand-slam champ was is all about (i.e. adding the tag & IC belts to his CV in quick succession afterwards)... He'd have been better off just having a meaningful, decent length IC reign last year and could have pretty much had the same key matches too (Regal, Rey, JBL x 2, Jericho... Just not Orton, which would have also been a good thing because he & Punk sound like a sweet match-up to me; one that I'd have liked to have seen 'fresh' so to speak.).

 

[JimmyD]

Yeah I totally agree. Orton facing off against Punk could be the WWE's Hogan vs Sting if they book it right, and even now after they've dented his overness with a premature title run I still think they could make it happen with some forward planning. The key is to not shoot your bolt too early, which unfortunately the WWE most definitely did with Punk the first time round. It's as if they saw him and recognised that he was the first guy in years who had the potential to break into the main event and stay there, and then instantly creamed themselves and damaged his overness quite badly as a result.

It's why I think him winning MITB was a bit stupid as well. Punk doesn't need a one-off, kneejerk shot at a title. He needs a run against Edge (who'll hopefully win back the title at Backlash) where he always just loses, whether it be by cheating or by other means. Book him like that and the fans will start to believe in him as a main eventer soon enough. But the MITB is supposed to be for guys who haven't had a main event shot yet, to showcase them in that environment for the first time so as to gauge the fan's reaction to them and also to begin their journey from the midcard to the top. Punk's already been there, and to the fans him winning MITB would be like Orton - or another former world champion - winning it (silly example, but the point still stands).

 

[Next Big Thing]

Orton facing off against Punk could be the WWE's Hogan vs Sting if they book it right,

Is this a joke? I sure hope it was. Hogan vs. Sting was one of the most anticipated matches in wrestling history. It was up there with the likes of Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Warrior, and Austin/Rock at WM17. Hogan is the biggest name in wrestling history, and Sting is one of the biggest names in history, and you could make an argument that he was the biggest WCW star of all time. While Orton is good and could possibly one day be mentioned in the same breath as a Hogan or a Sting, currently he's not even close. As for CM Punk, I really don't think I need to explain how dumb it is to mention him in the same sentence as Hogan or Sting.