THE AGE OF AWESOMENESS HAS STARTED!!!

[monkeystyle]

Couldn't agree more. Especially with the current state of the WWE, you cant wait years to finally put the belt on someone, the WWE made the right move, they gave the title to teh Miz at the right time, he is IMO the hottest thing in the WWE right now, and with the main event scene on RAW being what it is, it's nice to see someone new with the strap, rather than the endless Cena/Orton/HHH (and more recently Sheamus) cycle that's been on top for the last few years

It's not just that. It's that the entire idea is such an archaic institution I am pretty sure was designed so that some old fogeys can have an excuse to be like nope, not havin' it. And it's not just in wrestling either, even though it seems to be very prevalent there. Like, I wouldn't have my job right now if people really believed that I had to pay my dues for years as opposed to being offered the job based on my actual talents and merits.

Tenure is not important. What you can do here and now is all that matters. And whether the k-man likes it or not, the Miz is right here and now one of the best things the WWE has going.

 

[monkeystyle]

It's not about paying you dues, it's about having enough experience to know what the hell you're doing. If you hire an electrician, do you want the guy with 10 years experience, who's seen it all, or a guy who has a book called Electricity 101 and is still learning?

Like I said in my previous post. I wouldn't have a job with that mentality. Like, I'm a sous chef now but I have literally zero practical experience inside a restaurant's kitchen. Simply my own. Now, they could have said that I needed much more experience before even considering me for the job but they gave me a shot and I have been able to run with it.

I hope you're seeing what I am trying to get across here.

 

[straight_edge76]

You don't just put over people by letting them beat you. Ric Flair, Bret Hart, and the like made so many worthless pieces of shit look like GODS in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Sometimes through jobs, sometimes through bumping like mad, sometimes through giving them the best match they'd ever have in their career.

Like I said, making someone look good doesn't IMO equate to putting them over, it does help but just by going out with a lesser worker and busting your ass doesn't automatically make them over. Bret worked with dozens of guys in his carrer and how many did he actually put over? Austin (as a face), Owen (as a top heel).. That's about it, a lot of the other guys, HBK (other than dropping the title to him he didn't put him over), Nash, Taker etc were already over by the time they feuded, he just helped add to that level of overness they had already achieved

It's not just that. It's that the entire idea is such an archaic institution I am pretty sure was designed so that some old fogeys can have an excuse to be like nope, not havin' it. And it's not just in wrestling either, even though it seems to be very prevalent there. Like, I wouldn't have my job right now if people really believed that I had to pay my dues for years as opposed to being offered the job based on my actual talents and merits.

Tenure is not important. What you can do here and now is all that matters. And whether the k-man likes it or not, the Miz is right here and now one of the best things the WWE has going.

You do have a good point there Monk, just because someone doesn't have as much experience as someone in anything (Wrestling, in the workplace whatever) shouldn't have anything to do with who gets the push higher up the ladder of success. The whole "paying your dues" aspect still to a certain extent should and likely will still have an impact on where and when you will become a big name in the wrestling buisness, but just because you haven't been around floating in the midcard/tag scene for years doesn't mean you are more qualified or would make a better champion than someone who has. Like seriously, if Christian would return and win the WWE title who do you think would be a more succesful champion? The Miz, someone who is the hottest thing in the 'E. Or Christian, a decently over midcarder who has tenure on him?

 

[Kaedon]

Straight Edge, I think we dont agree what the phrase "putting a guy over means". IMO, if you make a guy look like a million dollars, you're putting him over, you're making him better.

MS: You're confusing "best thing" in the WWE with the "hottest thing" in the WWE. And just because a guy is hot for a minute doesn't make him championship material.

 

[straight_edge76]

Straight Edge, I think we dont agree what the phrase "putting a guy over means". IMO, if you make a guy look like a million dollars, you're putting him over, you're making him better.

That is true, I dont think we agree on the terms of putting someone over. To an extent I do think what you said is putting someone over, but there is more to it, I feel that what someones work, be it match, feud whatever does to help the other guy is more important than one match, but that's just me. Different strokes for different strokes I suppose

 

[monkeystyle]

MS: You're confusing "best thing" in the WWE with the "hottest thing" in the WWE. And just because a guy is hot for a minute doesn't make him championship material.

Maybe you're right on that. Maybe that is a matter of individual perception because I've thought the Miz was the shit for a while now. However you're being very assumptive in saying that he's only going to be hot for a minute. If the WWE writers do their jobs right the Miz has the tools to be hot for a very long time.

 

[Kaedon]

Maybe you're right on that. Maybe that is a matter of individual perception because I've thought the Miz was the shit for a while now. However you're being very assumptive in saying that he's only going to be hot for a minute. If the WWE writers do their jobs right the Miz has the tools to be hot for a very long time.

It's not the writers jobs to keep him over. I seriously hate that shit. Did Austin get booked to be the megastar he was? Or did he make it himself? Did the Rock get booked into megastardom or did he have...well EVERYTHING to make it work? The way you all are on Miz's nuts, you'd think he was getting a chorus of boos wherever he went. Did you hear the SILENCE during his match with Lawler and part of his promo? That crowd barely came alive for anything other than the spots in the match. From bell to bell and when he's in the ring, the writers can't help him, and Miz can't help himself because he's unqualified.

 

[Beer]

Again, if all that matters is overness, then who cares about the character.

Backtrackkkkkkkkkk, when did I say all that mattered was overness? It's overness and character. But ring skills seriously don't need to be all that special any more.

 

[Axis]

tl;dr @ this whole thread. But I assume that in talking about Flair and Hart, people are functioning under the belief that the wrestling industry is the same today as it was 20 - 30 years ago. Those people would be wrong.

 

[Airfixx]

Being regarded as having one of the greatest tag teams of all time. They don't get that respect without stealing the show with the Harts.

Key word: "WITH" the Harts..... Not courtesy OF the Harts.

I didn't say he "carried" them, I said he helped get them over because he was the go to guy in the ring on that team.

....And on the other side of the ring 2 more "go to" guys in Martel & Santana.

Ok, name one great moment they had outside of their matches with the Harts.

Woah, slow down there... You're getting WAY ahead of yourself.... I didn't even acknowledge that they'd had any "great" moments WITH the Harts either. Maybe you should be telling me what these Great moments were yourself.... I'm not aware of any.

The fact that they got to that program with Demolition is a height

Yup. The ONLY height of their short WWF tag career...... And as per the original point, in no way thanks to Bret or the HF.

the fact that those no talent meatheads got over after they split up is because of the time they put in wrestling guys like Bret who made them look good and not the over rated pieces of crap they were.

Nothing to do with having a kick-ass manager weilding the mic for them and having rediculously imposing physiques then no?

Pffffff... You make it sound like these guys were over like fuck... They weren't. What little heat they had was inherrited from their managers. Plus, they were pretty much jobbed from the start (Barbarian slightly less so than Warlord).



Sorry, I've lost all remaining enthusiasm for this debate. I shoulda known better, but regardless of right or wrong you won't budge an inch because it is in some way linked to your feellings towards The Miz and to relent on any point may just suggest you could have been wrong or even merely over-zealous about him too.

 

[Kaedon]

Key word: "WITH" the Harts..... Not courtesy OF the Harts.

and

....And on the other side of the ring 2 more "go to" guys in Martel & Santana.

Yes, part of it was courtesy OF the Harts. If the Bulldogs feuded with the Killer B's, the wouldn't have gotten as over. The same with Strikeforce

Woah, slow down there... You're getting WAY ahead of yourself.... I didn't even acknowledge that they'd had any "great" moments WITH the Harts either. Maybe you should be telling me what these Great moments were yourself.... I'm not aware of any.

I remember their matches with the Harts quite fondly. Other guys too, but I really like the Harts AND THEY WERE REALLY GOOD, but I remember their matches the most.

Yup. The ONLY height of their short WWF tag career...... And as per the original point, in no way thanks to Bret or the HF.

Yeah, the fact that Bret and Anvil made them from stiffs into passable workers, or at least LOOK like it, had nothing to do with it...


Once again, this is all something Miz could NEVER do because A) he doesn't have the experience, and B) he just flat out sucks in the ring. I remember Bret Hart and Jerry Lawler being one of the most dramatic matches at a Summerslam a while ago. Bret and Lawler clicked because of what they'd done collectively. What did Miz do with Lawler? He had a passable match that got faint crowd reaction.

Nothing to do with having a kick-ass manager weilding the mic for them and having rediculously imposing physiques then no?

Pffffff... You make it sound like these guys were over like fuck... They weren't. What little heat they had was inherrited from their managers. Plus, they were pretty much jobbed from the start (Barbarian slightly less so than Warlord).

They didn't just do jobs, when they were in programs with guys like Jake The Snake, they were made to look amazing because Jake can do that. He can turn dogshit into diamonds. Like Bret could, like Miz CANT.

Sorry, I've lost all remaining enthusiasm for this debate. I shoulda known better, but regardless of right or wrong you won't budge an inch because it is in some way linked to your feellings towards The Miz and to relent on any point may just suggest you could have been wrong or even merely over-zealous about him too.

Yeah, I'm the only one who's overzealous about the Miz. The dickriding that has been done in this thread borders on creepy.

 

[ThomC]

What did Miz do with Lawler? He had a passable match that got faint crowd reaction.

If Lawler was 15 years younger like when he and Bret wrestled each other the match against Miz would have been alot better. Ric Flair and Jay Lethal had a pretty good match with each other a few months ago, but it wasn't as good as when Flair wrestled Steamboat almost 30 years ago, so Jay Lethal must suck.

As much as I still can't take Miz seriously there are plenty of people out there who do take him serious. He's very over as one of the top heels in WWE and all of wrestling right now for that matter. He's improved as a wrestler probably more than anybody I can think of right now since his debut. Him getting the title right now is a breathe of fresh air, and something I can back right now even with my view on the Miz.

 

[Kaedon]

"One of the top heels in the WWE" doesn't get almost no reaction during his matches, no matter who it's against.

 

[ThomC]

"One of the top heels in the WWE" doesn't get almost no reaction during his matches, no matter who it's against.

If you can name 5 heels in WWE right now that get more heat than Miz does I will concede that he isn't one of their top heels. I'll name two to get you started, Sheamus and CM Punk. To me Miz is at the same level of heel status with those two guys. But if you can name 5 guys with more heat than Miz then he wouldn't be a top heel since he wouldn't be in the top 5 heels in WWE. To me, and others around here, he is.

 

[Kaedon]

The fact that you think Sheamus has more heat when he got almost NO REACTION during his matches during KOTR and his post tourney promo shows you don't know what you're talking about. Miz has WAY MORE HEAT than Sheamus because he's been there longer.

Kane, CM Punk, and Wade Barrett have more heat. Edge, when he was a heel had more heat till he recently turned face, so there's 4, and if you want to count Sheamus, that's 5. I'm also pretty sure Cole and Vickie are more hated too.

But what does that have to do with the LACK OF RESPONSE Miz got in a match full of gimmicks? These guys would have gotten more of a response.