THE AGE OF AWESOMENESS HAS STARTED!!!

[CMS]

You know Kaedon, I feel we're just running circles. You just decide to miss the bigger picture and you polarize every position. You decide to believe it's wrestling what it's important in the main event and not mic skills and the actual program by citing Bret Hart being over, even though Bret Hart's most remembered matches are the one steeming off from his best programs.

You go and hate on The Miz, keep your ramble and playing dumb by saying the only reason he's champion is because he's over. I won't be the one not enjoying the product. Besides, some of the things you say ar ejust not even worth arguing. Nobody on the current roster can do what HBK did, and certainly they can't do what Stone Cold did, that has been exactly the problem since 2002. But hey, sour yourself up, I'll be enjoying every Monday Night Raw unlike you

 

[Airfixx]

I'm not saying he's not good, I'm not even saying he's not ready to be a main eventer, I'm saying HE'S NOT READY TO BE THE WWE CHAMPION!!

And no, I'm not saying he should have achieved in 5 years, what took Piper and Hart a decade to achieve, I'm saying HE SHOULD TAKE A DECADE TO ACHIEVE IT BEFORE HE IS GIVEN THE TITLE!!! Prove that you can carry shit before you just slap the title on a guy. It happens all too much now a days. That's why Edge's world title reigns are better than Jack Thwaggers

So how do you propose Miz, 5 years deep in WWE, goes about getting ten years experience whilst steering clear of the world title?

Stick him in the mid card until he rots (by which time that he'd be SO stale he wouldn't be worth shit as a ME-er anyway)?

Send him out to wrestle on the indies for 5 years until he's all bent out of the 'shape' (physically and psychology-wise) that WWE wants him in?


...O-r-r-r-r-r should WWE give him the ball and see if he can run with it? Hmmmmmmmmmm. :roll:

or Miz's. PERIOD.

You mean the one that has yet to end? Riiiiiiiiight........ :roll:

And who else did Bret put over when he first got there? The Bulldogs...

Nope. They won the tag titles at WM2.... The same night that Bret & Jim were first televised together i'm not mistaken (they weren't even wearing pink!).

Strike Force

A former & succesful babyface IC champ (Remember that belt meant shit loads back then!) and a seasoned worker like Martel (who was already set to be a tag champ with Tom Zenk as Can Am Connection until Zenk did the off suddenyl.) needed to be put over by the Hart Foundation? ....GTFO!

(...Besides Danny Davis was the one carrying all the heat during that period thanks to the screwjobs he did on Santano vs Savage & Bulldogs vs HFoundation.)

and pretty much every tag team he and Anvil worked with.

Who then? Still waiting....

Bolsheviks? (Wow... Look how high they climbed as a unit!)
The Conquistadors? (No comment needed, but E&C put those guys over a dozen years later! lol)
Powers Of Pain? (Double turn with Demolition @ SSeries88 takes credit for those guys.)
Twin Towers (Straight into the main event vs MegaPowers for those two)
Bushwhackers? (HF were already faces by the time those guys debuted so never faced off in any significant circumstances.)
The Rockers (I'm sure we can all laugh at that notion together.)

(Forgive me if I've forgotten anyone.)

The only teams I see that they could get credit for would be:

The Rougeaus, whom I've already mentioned, but even then it was Jimmy Hart screwing the Harts over and The Mouth giving their contracts to Jaque & Raymond that gave them their heat, not anything Bret or Jim did.

The Nasty Boys... Purely cos they dropped the straps to them (even though there was no fued or anything before or after, just a random title shot).

Hardly of stellar importance to WWFs classic era of tag teams.

 

[Kaedon]

So how do you propose Miz, 5 years deep in WWE, goes about getting ten years experience whilst steering clear of the world title?

I propose he get another year or so of experience by working a program in the main event before throwing the title on him.

Nope. They won the tag titles at WM2.... The same night that Bret & Jim were first televised together i'm not mistaken (they weren't even wearing pink!).

Yes, I forgot how over they were, how they were stealing the show that night. Urrrrr no. It wasn't until They started to feud with the Harts that they started to steal the show together.

A former & succesful babyface IC champ (Remember that belt meant shit loads back then!) and a seasoned worker like Martel (who was already set to be a tag champ with Tom Zenk as Can Am Connection until Zenk did the off suddenyl.) needed to be put over by the Hart Foundation? ....GTFO!

Yeah, and Bret and Anvil made them look better, which was their job.

Bolsheviks? (Wow... Look how high they climbed as a unit!)
The Conquistadors? (No comment needed, but E&C put those guys over a dozen years later! lol)
The Rougeaus, whom I've already mentioned, but even then it was Jimmy Hart screwing the Harts over and The Mouth giving their contracts to Jaque & Raymond that gave them their heat, not anything Bret or Jim did.

The fact that we wouldn't know about these guys only because they had good regular matches with the Harts is a testament to how good they actually were.

Powers Of Pain? (Double turn with Demolition @ SSeries88 takes credit for those guys.)

Yeah they were complete unkowns before that....

You know Kaedon, I feel we're just running circles. You just decide to miss the bigger picture and you polarize every position. You decide to believe it's wrestling what it's important in the main event and not mic skills and the actual program by citing Bret Hart being over, even though Bret Hart's most remembered matches are the one steeming off from his best programs.

Again I say, if mic skills are all that the Miz has, why isn't Santino championship material. You all just keep saying "stop mentioning him" Why? Because he blows a hole in your "he's over and has mic skills so go with it" argument.

You go and hate on The Miz, keep your ramble and playing dumb by saying the only reason he's champion is because he's over. I won't be the one not enjoying the product. Besides, some of the things you say ar ejust not even worth arguing. Nobody on the current roster can do what HBK did, and certainly they can't do what Stone Cold did

No one, accept, HHH, Undertaker, John Cena, CM Punk, Randy Orton, Edge, and Rey Mysterio, or yeah...no one. They aren't as great as HBK or Austin, but they can do what they did, which is sell out arenas all over the country and put on main event caliber programs with anyone.

But hey, sour yourself up, I'll be enjoying every Monday Night Raw unlike you

I'll be enjoying King Shemus, Cena getting back at Nexus, the solid mid card, and watching Miz fail.


And MS, as far as Miz carrying Lawler goes, that's a joke. There were almost NO CROWD REACTIONS in that match outside of the spots with the TLC's, Cole getting involved, and one faint "Miz is awful" chant. The way you guys are up his ass, there should have been John Cena in MSG type boos coming down on him. Miz barely had SHIT for heat last night because, like I said, he's NOT ready.

 

[CMS]

Again I say, if mic skills are all that the Miz has, why isn't Santino championship material. You all just keep saying "stop mentioning him" Why? Because he blows a hole in your "he's over and has mic skills so go with it" argument.

Except YOU are the one who has said all Miz has is mic skills and YOU are the one with the mic skills and overness argument.

 

[Kaedon]

I havent heard any other compelling argument other than "he can put on a passable match with anyone" which is a lie. So what else is there?

 

[Airfixx]

Bulldogs: Yes, I forgot how over they were, how they were stealing the show that night. Urrrrr no. It wasn't until They started to feud with the Harts that they started to steal the show together.

That's an extramely blinkered way of looking at it...

Bearing in mind that Dynamite and Davey were also relatively seasoned workers, it would be far fairer to look towards the quality of their previous OPPONENTS as to why they weren't "stealing the show" until fueding the Harts.

You're also choosing not to consider the fact that they'd worked each other in various configurations loads during their time in Stampede.

We're simply talking about 2 damn good teams that knew each other very well going out there and having great matches.

No putting over (in the sense of carrying them to an acceptable/appropriate level) came into it....

StrikeForce: Yeah, and Bret and Anvil made them look better, which was their job.

You could say that about anyone HF faced if you're not gonna quantify how...

Point is Tito & Martel were over and had the skills to back it up...

Bolshevics etc.: The fact that we wouldn't know about these guys only because they had good regular matches with the Harts is a testament to how good they actually were.

Except the list in question, although not by design, is effectively just all the 'forgotten' teams from that classic era of tag teams... So if, by your estimation, they were all put over by the HF, they couldn't have been put over to much of a degree to achieve veritable jobber status... Maybe more thanks should go to the few guys that actually took losses to these guys... Teams like Hammer & Beefcake, Young Stallions, Kille Bees and so on.

A side note: I am in no way disputing how good HF were... That's not what's being debated here.

Powers Of Pain:Yeah they were complete unkowns before that....

(Not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic, but I have NO recollection of heel HF vs face POP, however correct me if I am wrong.)

....Yet, POP were definately not put over by the HF AFTER SS88. In fact, the Harts going over The P.O.P. in their fued during late '89 (and squashing The Bolshevics in 15 seconds and WM6) was what set the HF back on the road to the titles having spend much of the previous year getting over as faces whilst facing more top teir teams like Demolition & The Brain Busters. P.O.P split VERY soon after so HF certainly didn't leave them in a better position than when they 'found' them.

To concude, IMO, HF were generally used as a top teir team and weren't called upon to do any high profile jobs....

You want a co-called talent enhancement team from that era? Try The Rockers.

 

[Beer]

You don't seem to understand K-Man. Santino ISN'T over, and even the fans know he's a joke, THAT is why he won't ever be champion. The Miz is certainly taken seriously and has the mic skills and overness to back it up. You just can't seem to fathom that you don't need hugely amazing ring skills to be a top draw in the business now. Miz is fresh, he's the best young talent the WWE has at the moment and it IS a good thing to have the title on him atm.

 

[Kaedon]

Bearing in mind that Dynamite and Davey were also relatively seasoned workers, it would be far fairer to look towards the quality of their previous OPPONENTS as to why they weren't "stealing the show" until fueding the Harts.

So you're telling me they would have reached the same heights if they didn't have the Harts to play off of night after night, stealing the show? Please....

You could say that about anyone HF faced if you're not gonna quantify how...

Point is Tito & Martel were over and had the skills to back it up...

Again, it was matches like the ones they had with the Harts, and yes, even the Bulldogs that helped them get even MORE over.

Except the list in question, although not by design, is effectively just all the 'forgotten' teams from that classic era of tag teams... So if, by your estimation, they were all put over by the HF, they couldn't have been put over to much of a degree to achieve veritable jobber status... Maybe more thanks should go to the few guys that actually took losses to these guys... Teams like Hammer & Beefcake, Young Stallions, Kille Bees and so on.

If the only reason you remember them is that they faced the Harts, then yes, it's a testament to the HF and Bret.

(Not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic, but I have NO recollection of heel HF vs face POP, however correct me if I am wrong.)

....Yet, POP were definately not put over by the HF AFTER SS88. In fact, the Harts going over The P.O.P. in their fued during late '89 (and squashing The Bolshevics in 15 seconds and WM6) was what set the HF back on the road to the titles having spend much of the previous year getting over as faces whilst facing more top teir teams like Demolition & The Brain Busters. P.O.P split VERY soon after so HF certainly didn't leave them in a better position than when they 'found' them.

To concude, IMO, HF were generally used as a top teir team and weren't called upon to do any high profile jobs....

You want a co-called talent enhancement team from that era? Try The Rockers.

But they were called upon, night after night, win or lose, to make Road Warrior wannabees look like a million bucks when they had zero wrestling skill. They made guys who couldn't sell worth shit and looked like two hot dogs memorable when they really sucked out loud. THEY HELPED MAKE THE TAG DIVISION WHAT IT WAS BACK THEN!!

You don't seem to understand K-Man. Santino ISN'T over, and even the fans know he's a joke, THAT is why he won't ever be champion. The Miz is certainly taken seriously and has the mic skills and overness to back it up. You just can't seem to fathom that you don't need hugely amazing ring skills to be a top draw in the business now. Miz is fresh, he's the best young talent the WWE has at the moment and it IS a good thing to have the title on him atm.

So a guy who goes out there and get's a louder response than almost anyone ISN'T over? That has to be a joke, kinda like the Miz "carrying" Lawler on Raw, on so many levels. Santino is a comedy character, that doesn't make him any less over. the crowd loves him and they want to see him, that's the bottom line. And if THAT is your criteria for giving a guy THE TITLE, then Santino should have it.

On a side note, how AWESOME is Miz's theme? I was cranking that shit on repeat during my workout today, LOVE IT. Best thing about him IMO.

 

[Airfixx]

So you're telling me they would have reached the same heights if they didn't have the Harts to play off of night after night, stealing the show? Please....

What are these heights you speak of? ...The Dog kidnap angle at WM4? lol

Regardless of the factors involved, it was all downhill for the Bulldogs once they'd failed to recapture the titles from the Harts. They weren't elevated beyond being former tag champs.

Again, it was matches like the ones they had with the Harts, and yes, even the Bulldogs that helped them get even MORE over.

...And AGAIN, I refer you to the fact that you've got 3 excellent workers + The Anvil (who could still carry his own end) in the ring having matches that their abilities allowed them to (and in the case of HF v BBs a shit load of chemistry that had developed over the years). Bret, didn't carry or put over shit... Granted Jimmy Hart and Danny Davis may have elevated the fueds/angles, but there's nothing there you can acredit specifically to Bret himself.

If the only reason you remember them is that they faced the Harts, then yes, it's a testament to the HF and Bret.

Firstly, I didn't say that what-so-ever.

I remember them as the guys that always used to get beaten and could only muster a win against other teams of their ilk. (And these are the memories of a MARK from the 80's, not a post-internet smark synopsis.)

But they were called upon, night after night, win or lose, to make Road Warrior wannabees look like a million bucks when they had zero wrestling skill. They made guys who couldn't sell worth shit and looked like two hot dogs memorable when they really sucked out loud. THEY HELPED MAKE THE TAG DIVISION WHAT IT WAS BACK THEN!!

So after aaaaaaaalllll this debating the only solid point you have relates to THE P.O.P.? ...A team that was put together to be beaten by Demolition and then fed to The Harts. Yeah the HF made them look 'good' on the circuit for a couple of months.... Remind me again, The P.O.P. were elevated to what "heights" by Bret Hart, again? (Seeing as that's the point you were clinging to at the point that I begain this latest reply.)

As I've already pointed out, I am not disputing how good the HF were, but for fucks sake look at the talent pool between 85 & 90:

Hart Foundation
Davey & Dynamite
Arn & Tulley
Tito & Martel
Dreamteam's G.Valentine
The Funk Brothers
Demolition's Ax (aka Billy Eady)
Bossman & One Man Gang
Jacque Rougeau
+ no doubt more that haven't sprung immediately to mind

...Yes, there were a few stiffs amongst them, but FFS, you make it sound like you've got Ric Flair dragging Steve Lombardi or another archetypal jobber to a 5 star, 1 hour match on a regular basis, on said jobber's way to becoming a 10 time world champ. :roll:



So did Bret carry Bulldog all the way to the IC title at Summerslam 92 as well?

 

[Kaedon]

What are these heights you speak of? ...The Dog kidnap angle at WM4? lol

Being regarded as having one of the greatest tag teams of all time. They don't get that respect without stealing the show with the Harts.

...And AGAIN, I refer you to the fact that you've got 3 excellent workers + The Anvil (who could still carry his own end) in the ring having matches that their abilities allowed them to (and in the case of HF v BBs a shit load of chemistry that had developed over the years). Bret, didn't carry or put over shit... Granted Jimmy Hart and Danny Davis may have elevated the fueds/angles, but there's nothing there you can acredit specifically to Bret himself.

I didn't say he "carried" them, I said he helped get them over because he was the go to guy in the ring on that team.

Firstly, I didn't say that what-so-ever.

I remember them as the guys that always used to get beaten and could only muster a win against other teams of their ilk. (And these are the memories of a MARK from the 80's, not a post-internet smark synopsis.)

Ok, name one great moment they had outside of their matches with the Harts.

So after aaaaaaaalllll this debating the only solid point you have relates to THE P.O.P.? ...A team that was put together to be beaten by Demolition and then fed to The Harts. Yeah the HF made them look 'good' on the circuit for a couple of months.... Remind me again, The P.O.P. were elevated to what "heights" by Bret Hart, again? (Seeing as that's the point you were clinging to at the point that I begain this latest reply.)

The fact that they got to that program with Demolition is a height, and the fact that those no talent meatheads got over after they split up is because of the time they put in wrestling guys like Bret who made them look good and not the over rated pieces of crap they were.

As I've already pointed out, I am not disputing how good the HF were, but for fucks sake look at the talent pool between 85 & 90:

Hart Foundation
Davey & Dynamite
Arn & Tulley <=== the fact that they were there for a year made them one of the best teams of the eara? Right.....

Tito & Martel
Dreamteam's G.Valentine
The Funk Brothers <==== who did really nothing for the division other than a WM 2 match
Demolition's Ax (aka Billy Eady)
Bossman & One Man Gang <===== Stiffs
Jacque Rougeau
+ no doubt more that haven't sprung immediately to mind

...Yes, there were a few stiffs amongst them, but FFS, you make it sound like you've got Ric Flair dragging Steve Lombardi or another archetypal jobber to a 5 star, 1 hour match on a regular basis, on said jobber's way to becoming a 10 time world champ. :roll:

That's what it was like when Bret and Anvil got in there with the myriad of stiffs in the tag division yes. And the ones that weren't were still elevated. They weren't "Carried" but without the greatness on the other end of the ring, they wouldn't have been as over. Which is a great reason why Miz can't be champ. He's carried in matches more often than he carries. In fact, other than some NXT season 2 scrub, he's never carried anyone because he's garbage in the ring.

So did Bret carry Bulldog all the way to the IC title at Summerslam 92 as well?

Did you see the number of spots Davey blew in that match? Hell yes. If that was Ted Dibiasie vs. The Bulldog in England, it wouldn't have been NEARLY as big, despite Ted being almost on par with Bret.

 

[straight_edge76]

Honestly K, I feel you may be giving Bret a little too much credit here, he was great, dont get me wrong (next to Austin he's my all time favorite wrestler) but you are putting him on this pedastol with the likes of Flair that he shouldn't be on. Making guys look good (at times giving them some of their best matches) in both singles and tag wrestling isn't IMO the same as putting someone over. Bret (and Anvil during the tag run) could work with anyone and make them look great, but they didnt necessaruly put teams over, some of the matches they had with the Rockers were great, but they by no means took them from middle of the pack tag team to top of the division.

 

[Beer]

So a guy who goes out there and get's a louder response than almost anyone ISN'T over? That has to be a joke, kinda like the Miz "carrying" Lawler on Raw, on so many levels. Santino is a comedy character, that doesn't make him any less over. the crowd loves him and they want to see him, that's the bottom line. And if THAT is your criteria for giving a guy THE TITLE, then Santino should have it. .

You missed the point again. Santino is a JOKE to the fans. He's a comedy character and is not taken seriously. The Miz however, IS taken seriously.

 

[monkeystyle]

I seriously want to rage anytime anybody mentions how somebody needs to "pay their dues." What a crock of shit.

 

[straight_edge76]

I seriously want to rage anytime anybody mentions how somebody needs to "pay their dues." What a crock of shit.

Couldn't agree more. Especially with the current state of the WWE, you cant wait years to finally put the belt on someone, the WWE made the right move, they gave the title to teh Miz at the right time, he is IMO the hottest thing in the WWE right now, and with the main event scene on RAW being what it is, it's nice to see someone new with the strap, rather than the endless Cena/Orton/HHH (and more recently Sheamus) cycle that's been on top for the last few years

 

[Kaedon]

Honestly K, I feel you may be giving Bret a little too much credit here, he was great, dont get me wrong (next to Austin he's my all time favorite wrestler) but you are putting him on this pedastol with the likes of Flair that he shouldn't be on. Making guys look good (at times giving them some of their best matches) in both singles and tag wrestling isn't IMO the same as putting someone over. Bret (and Anvil during the tag run) could work with anyone and make them look great, but they didnt necessaruly put teams over, some of the matches they had with the Rockers were great, but they by no means took them from middle of the pack tag team to top of the division.

You don't just put over people by letting them beat you. Ric Flair, Bret Hart, and the like made so many worthless pieces of shit look like GODS in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Sometimes through jobs, sometimes through bumping like mad, sometimes through giving them the best match they'd ever have in their career.

You missed the point again. Santino is a JOKE to the fans. He's a comedy character and is not taken seriously. The Miz however, IS taken seriously.

Again, if all that matters is overness, then who cares about the character.

I seriously want to rage anytime anybody mentions how somebody needs to "pay their dues." What a crock of shit.

It's not about paying you dues, it's about having enough experience to know what the hell you're doing. If you hire an electrician, do you want the guy with 10 years experience, who's seen it all, or a guy who has a book called Electricity 101 and is still learning?