Round 4: Quadrant 1 Matchup 1

[The Wrestling Addict]

I've seen that said a few times about if this person loses they aren't gonna vote anymore. Despite my opinion on who should and shouldn't win that is the point of having one of these things to see who wins based on our own opinions or else what would be the point of having this tourny.

But people aren't voting to the tournament's criteria. I am not saying everyone but a lot of people are only voting for who they like more. This isn't a popularity tournament but people are treating it like it is just that.

 

[PHX]

I can agree people should vote based on what's for but same time your preference comes into play not enjoying Cena's reigns and enjoying Kurts. Imo this should be a no brainer and think Kurt is one of the best things to ever happen in wrestling as world champion for whatever reason that may be.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

This it defeats the objectiveness of the this tournament if personal preference comes into play over actual quality and important.

This tournament has lacked some of the legit GOATs in the world in the first place who have been a WHC, so it's been really subjective from the start.

 

[PHX]

Not really as long as it has to do with their title reigns. You can't just ignore that just like u can't ignore the other two factors you mentioned. Pretty much can help you decide between two guys like Flair and Austin when you're trying to go over who to pick between the two.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

The thing between Flair and Austin if we was doing it completely objectively, it would relatively go down the quality of each reign, length, drawing power within the reign, the actual quality of the matches...

It probably is possible to an entire tournament subjectively, it's just about finding people who aren't marks in an objective argument, I mean perfect example is this current one, how can any be objectively against Cena... Everything points to his reigns being far more superior than Kurt Angle's...

 

[Kingslayer]

Yeah, everything except the fact that the top face is being booed out of every building he competed in for the last 6 years.

 

[PHX]

Just comes down to views not everyone on this forum views everything the same way and it's not supposed to be that way anyways. Like I said in this case Cena is a no brainer and had much better and important title reigns that Angle every did or will have. There is probably people who can't state a case that Angle's reign was more important than Cena but they'll probably think Angle's was more quality than Cena's which I would disagree with that but it's just how it is. This isn't even the biggest injustice of the tourny anyways if you were to call it that Benoit beating Hulk Hogan takes the title for that.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

Yeah, everything except the fact that the top face is being booed out of every building he competed in for the last 6 years.

You're point being? Cena is still drawing, people pay to see him win or losing depending your feeling towards him... Doesn't make him anything worse, the industry has changed since he got top face.

*UPDATE*

Yeah, I don't disagree with the injustice towards Hulk Hogan, but Hulkster is probably realistically in the top five G.O.A.Ts of all time, Misawa, Cena, Flair and Austin all have closer stakes to the ''greatest'' champion of all time, Flair almost certain would be first, Misawa I think would end up being second, either him or Austin.

So Hulks elimination early was injustice, he ultimately wasn't gonna rank up compared to Cena, Flair or Austin.

 

[PHX]

Yeah, everything except the fact that the top face is being booed out of every building he competed in for the last 6 years.

And therefore created a situation never before created for a top face in the history of wrestling where every crowd is split between him making a with him or against him situation. If anything that just adds to his legacy not against it.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

50/50 now....

I dunno whether I should make a long ass winded post why Cena is better than Angle and try to sell the whole idea of Cena beating Angle...

 

[PHX]

Would be pretty boring if all the match ups here were blowouts so glad we got some close controversial stuff going on in these things.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

It's good to see healthy debate, but sometimes, things are nonsense xD!

it be interesting to see how a debate tournament would go down... *wink wink nudge nudge*

 

[Slim]

Healthy debate depends on the people involved and some people don't know how to debate because they can't see objectively but only through their own tunnel visioned glare that they are right about everything and if someone doesn't agree with what they think then they are just an idiotic mark that doesn't know anything about wrestling.

BUT with that being said... I voted Cena. Yes Angle was a great wrestler and yes Angle was a great world champion when he wound up being champion... but Cena's reigns as champion defined an era. Angle's reigns well... as good as they were are more forgettable. Cena's year long reign where he defeated Triple H at a very hostile Wrestlemania 22, come on now. He defeated HBK at Mania 23 then won an hour long match on Raw against HBK. Cena gets no love for obvious reasons but he is a rare talent and a true workhorse.

No I'm not a Cena fan. But gotta give props where it is due.

 

[Zen]

The fact that Kurt Angle is this close to winning is an utter disgrace and indicative of a complete lack of understanding of what constitutes wrestling on the part of the people who participated in this thread. Utterly shameful. Any comparison between Cena and Angle that places Angle in the same league or even the same planet as far as abilities are concerned is laughable, in other words, Cena is galaxies ahead of Angle at this point in regards to anything wrestling related.

EffectsofRaven, in particular, has done an excellent service to the discourse by utterly demolishing the Angle related markdom and nonsense.

And therefore created a situation never before created for a top face in the history of wrestling where every crowd is split between him making a with him or against him situation. If anything that just adds to his legacy not against it.

You are right, that Cena's legacy as a result of his reactions is rather unique, however, he is not the first person to get these sort of reactions. Other top stars, such as Hogan, and Rocky have gotten these sort of reactions before. What makes Cena unique, unlike his predecessors, is that, the WWE is actually PERFECTLY happy with his reactions. They actually learned to accept it and use it to their advantage. You have to understand why Cena gets the reactions he does. At the end of the day regardless of whether you come to boo him or cheer him, the WWE makes money and they are perfectly aware of it. It is all part of a generational conflict. It is about the leftover Attitude Era fans VS the New Fans. No matter what Cena does, the new fans will cheer him, and this much is evident when Cena goes against most current generation wrestlers -- he gets the majority of the cheers.If Cena however, goes against an old school wrestler(HHH, Taker, HBK, Jericho etc.) he gets booed because of the Attitude Era fans.

Cena isn't the problem, it is just the nature of the product. If Cena became a heel, and adopted the values of the Attitude Era crowd, he would earn their cheers and favour but the New Generation would boo him and we are back to 50/50. The problem is that the WWE is going through a generational change, similar to the early 90's when Hogan got boos(see Royal Rumble 92 as an example) and cheers, because the fans really loved the Hulkster but had grown up to a point where they wanted to move past the cartoony 80's stuff, so you got the 50-50 split. The same stuff is happening here.

In his current capacity, in this generation, Cena is a great avatar of the generational shift. Remember, after the WWE had to go through a epochal change after the collapse of the Attitude Era, so naturally, there is some conflict between the fans and the product. There is nothing wrong with this. Cena still gets the an extremely loud reaction(it isn't whether you get positive or negative reactions but that you get them, which is indicative of the fans caring), does fairly well for the ratings, and merchandise and the additional PR stuff. There really isn't a problem, as some smarks would like to pretend with regards to his role and the reactions it receives.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

So the all mighty Zenaku returns to post...

And he doesn't go to town on the Angle fans... Utter, utter disappointment! However, Cena is now in the lead with 10 to 9... This is good.