"Old School" RAW Discussion Thread (11/15/10)

[nation]

I think by Old School they meant 1980's Nation...Hence why Austin Rock, and the others you mentioned aren't actually old school legends.

Well they had the old RAW set up like it was a mix of 80's and 90's. Plugging RAW is war too.

First off, The Rock and Stone Cold are not legends. They are indeed some of the biggest names in the industry, but I dont know if enough time has passed for them to be considered legends.

Second, yeah, that makes sense, waste a Rock appearance just because the crowd would have gone crazy. You know, we could have gotten a ratings bump by saying The Rock would be there, but nah, let's just get a pop. Hey, we have saved the first sighting of HHH since Extreme Rules so that he can come back and fight Sheamus in a money making program and people crave the moment they get to see him back, but nah, let's just put him in a DX segment with HBK, who people haven't seen him since his classic at Wrestlemania.

I thought you said you knew the difference between legends and star power. Roddy Piper is a legend. Stone Cold, the Rock, they have more star power, you can still get money out of them, but they are not yet legends. Is a matter of aging.


And if you want to get technical, WWE didn't say Raw was going to be a night of legends. They say they were going old school.

Time needs to pass to be considered a legend? It's about what you've done to be considered a legend not how old you're. Yes, time does help create a legend but more than half of the guys shown aren't legends. Just because Jimmy Snuka is old and jumped off a cage doesn't make him a legend. Legends are guys that mean something and a few of them actually mean something. Then if you're talking about how time needs to pass, it's been a decade since the attitude era.

Those two guys are two of the top 5 biggest superstars of all time. There would be no attitude era if it wasn't for them. The Rock vs. Austin rivalry is regarded as one of the best rivalries of all time. The Rock and Austin have done more for the wrestling business then every "legend" who was on the show combined easily.

Again, the guys who were on the show expect for DiBiase and Piper were purposeless other then to show old school guys. So having all but two of the guys was a "wasted" appearance and having a nice surprise for a change something unexpected is a "wasted" appearance? Surprise is nice and actually seeing guys people care about is also nice.

To clarify on HHH making an appearance. I understand he is selling for Sheamus and there is anticipation for his return so I'm not actually saying he should have been there, definitely not a live appearance but I don't think him having a short skit would be so terrible.

 

[McFly...]

This was an Old School RAW. This was about seeing some people that we've haven't seen in a long time and giving them at least one more chance to shine. Sure they don't have the great accolade like Austin or the Rock but each one of them did make an impact on the business. Stone Cold and The Rock. Aren't they movie stars now? Can't we see them in theaters? Can't recall Slick having a movie in theaters. Who knows what the hell he's been doing these days, and that's the point. Stone Cold and Rock you will probably see them back in the WWE in some form or fashion. They at least have one more match left in them.

 

[Lady Redfield]

Real legends? I know you're a fan of Piper but he isn't in the same league as Rock And Austin. Those two guys are in the top 5 biggest stars of all time. I also recall saying don't think I'm comparing their legend status and star power so think. If you don't consider them to be legends then you're Blue. The New Age Outlaws are one of the most popular tag teams of the 90's and of all time, HHH a 13 time world champion, Sid a multiple world champion and highly successful as Psycho Sid and Sid Vicious, Rock and Austin I don't need to explain. It's common fucking sense.

Regardless of whether I am a Piper fan or not, it's a fact that he is a legend. FACT. I don't say it just because I like him, I say it because it's true. If you don't know the reasons why he is a legend, you're a fool. You don't have to like him to know the impact he had on wrestling and that the shit he did was epic. Not everyone can pull off being a heel and face. He pulled off both. He didn't need to read shit off a script. They gave him props and told him here you go, do whatever. Every Piper's Pit and promo you saw wasn't some scripted shit, it was him doing it all by himself, off the top of his head. Go watch his old shit like in Georgia and Portland, etc.

You're a tool if you hold guys like Austin and Rock next to guys like Piper and Flair and Hogan and all those guys. They were the ones responsible for getting wrestling into mainstream. Those guys are REAL legends. I respect them for what they did for wrestling and for getting it on the map. I would spit on Austin and the Rock before even saying they are legends. I don't hate them but fuck you if you even place them at the same level as the old school wrestlers.

Back then, wrestling meant something. People took it seriously. Being champ meant something. Now, wrestling is a fucking joke. Forget the whole fact that it was always scripted but old school wrestling is much different than wrestling is now. It had way more prestige than this shit.


OMG AUSTIN WAS SUCH A BADASS, LET'S GIVE THE smurf LEGEND STATUS BECAUSE HE THREW UP MIDDLE FINGERS, DRANK BEER AND BEAT UP HIS BOSS. OH LOOK, THE ROCK MADE A FUNNY, WHAT A LEGEND.


Fuck off, old school wrestlers deserve all the fucking respect in the world for what they did. Austin and Rock would be non-existant without them. Being a legend has nothing to do with how many championships you win, douchebag, especially in a time where winning the belt means fuck all to people because it's just a prop that gets passed around to the same 3 people.

Money Inc and NAO are my favourite tag teams of all time but you're Blue if you consider NAO to be legends. The only remaining legends should be HBK and Undertaker. Fuck the rest of these guys. Lots of good wrestlers but, again, wrestling is nothing like it used to be. Nothing means anything, it's just a gigantic playground with some cool belts to play with. Matches like Hogan vs Andre meant something to people. It will be talked about forever. Orton vs Cena 3000 means fuck all to people.

 

[CMS]

First off, yes, time involves in being a legend. Let's take it to other sports. Do you consider Kobe Bryant right now to be a legend? No right, even though with the career he's had he is more than deserving to be considered. Talk about him 20 years from now.

Snuka, all those midcard guys, are legends. The impact they had in the business was amazing. Snuka in his primetime was hell over. Most of those guys did a hell of a job in their careers, but just never got the championship because of guys like Hogan being champion for 4 years.

They are the legends. Rock, Austin, HHH, they aren't legends yet. The same example as in Kobe. Call me in 10 years and they will be, maybe in a higher regard than Snuka and etc.

Don't get me wrong, I also disagree with LadyHotRod. Just because the business is different doesn't mean that a legend emanating from the 90's will be less than a legend than one from the 80's. They would have gotten to that standard differently, but they will all be legends.


As for the surprise appearance, there's a big difference between using Tony Atlas randomly and using let's say Shawn Michaels randomly. You come out tomorrow and say, HBK is returning at Survivor Series, you will get mor buys out of that. HBK can still create money, his name is still relevant. It makes no sense wasting his appearances. Of course it would be nice, I as a fan would love it, and then start regretting that his first appearance was that random. Look where those random appearances after his retirement took Ric Flair. After the third random appearance with Batista against Orton, people didn't care and his retirement storyline was well washed up.

The Rock, Austin, an entire Raw could be hyped around their appearance. No sense in wasting them.

And HHH. Hell no. The whole point of him being away is that, being away, make people miss him, not see or know anything about him, until he makes that one defining appearance.

 

[nation]

Regardless of whether I am a Piper fan or not, it's a fact that he is a legend. FACT. I don't say it just because I like him, I say it because it's true. If you don't know the reasons why he is a legend, you're a fool. You don't have to like him to know the impact he had on wrestling and that the shit he did was epic. Not everyone can pull off being a heel and face. He pulled off both. He didn't need to read shit off a script. They gave him props and told him here you go, do whatever. Every Piper's Pit and promo you saw wasn't some scripted shit, it was him doing it all by himself, off the top of his head. Go watch his old shit like in Georgia and Portland, etc.

You're a tool if you hold guys like Austin and Rock next to guys like Piper and Flair and Hogan and all those guys. They were the ones responsible for getting wrestling into mainstream. Those guys are REAL legends. I respect them for what they did for wrestling and for getting it on the map. I would spit on Austin and the Rock before even saying they are legends. I don't hate them but fuck you if you even place them at the same level as the old school wrestlers.

Back then, wrestling meant something. People took it seriously. Being champ meant something. Now, wrestling is a fucking joke. Forget the whole fact that it was always scripted but old school wrestling is much different than wrestling is now. It had way more prestige than this shit.


OMG AUSTIN WAS SUCH A BADASS, LET'S GIVE THE smurf LEGEND STATUS BECAUSE HE THREW UP MIDDLE FINGERS, DRANK BEER AND BEAT UP HIS BOSS. OH LOOK, THE ROCK MADE A FUNNY, WHAT A LEGEND.


Fuck off, old school wrestlers deserve all the fucking respect in the world for what they did. Austin and Rock would be non-existant without them. Being a legend has nothing to do with how many championships you win, douchebag, especially in a time where winning the belt means fuck all to people because it's just a prop that gets passed around to the same 3 people.

Money Inc and NAO are my favourite tag teams of all time but you're Blue if you consider NAO to be legends. The only remaining legends should be HBK and Undertaker. Fuck the rest of these guys. Lots of good wrestlers but, again, wrestling is nothing like it used to be. Nothing means anything, it's just a gigantic playground with some cool belts to play with. Matches like Hogan vs Andre meant something to people. It will be talked about forever. Orton vs Cena 3000 means fuck all to people.

Where did I say Piper isn't a legend? He is one of the few guys on the show who is a legend. I do like Piper actually. He has cut some of the best promos you will ever see and the whole Hot Rod gimmick he nailed it, one of the most successful characters of all time.

lol at your old school fetish. You can like the old guys all you want, I don't hate them I respect the hell out of Hogan, Flair, Savage, Piper, etc. Those are some of the biggest legends of all time and the biggest in Hogan. Obviously those guys with the exception of Piper weren't on the show but I'm talking old school guys in general.

But the FACT is Piper doesn't touch shit on Austin or The Rock. It's about what you've done for the business and yes Piper has done a lot but no where near what these two men have accomplished creating arguably the most successful era of all time. The matches, feuds, moments, popularity, creating the attitude era together, etc.

No idea why you went on a rant about wrestling today compared to the old days, no shit it's fucking terrible. Way to point out the fucking obvious. So by your dumbass logic, Bruno Sammartino is a bigger legend then Hogan, Savage, Piper, Flair, etc just because he is more "old school". Well, he is a bigger legend then Piper and Savage but that's kind of how it is when the guy put wrestling on the national map but the point is you think "old school" means you're more of a legend.

Yes, in most cases it does guys like say Kane aren't in the same league as them but The Rock and Stone Cold? Two of the biggest stars of all time who put wrestling BACK on the map aren't legends? Okay....Fact is The Rock and Austin are much bigger legends compared to the guys featured on the show. Giving some time the NAO will be legends. Being one of the most successful tag teams of all time won't make them a legendary tag team? k.

First off, yes, time involves in being a legend. Let's take it to other sports. Do you consider Kobe Bryant right now to be a legend? No right, even though with the career he's had he is more than deserving to be considered. Talk about him 20 years from now.

Snuka, all those midcard guys, are legends. The impact they had in the business was amazing. Snuka in his primetime was hell over. Most of those guys did a hell of a job in their careers, but just never got the championship because of guys like Hogan being champion for 4 years.

They are the legends. Rock, Austin, HHH, they aren't legends yet. The same example as in Kobe. Call me in 10 years and they will be, maybe in a higher regard than Snuka and etc.

Don't get me wrong, I also disagree with LadyHotRod. Just because the business is different doesn't mean that a legend emanating from the 90's will be less than a legend than one from the 80's. They would have gotten to that standard differently, but they will all be legends.


As for the surprise appearance, there's a big difference between using Tony Atlas randomly and using let's say Shawn Michaels randomly. You come out tomorrow and say, HBK is returning at Survivor Series, you will get mor buys out of that. HBK can still create money, his name is still relevant. It makes no sense wasting his appearances. Of course it would be nice, I as a fan would love it, and then start regretting that his first appearance was that random. Look where those random appearances after his retirement took Ric Flair. After the third random appearance with Batista against Orton, people didn't care and his retirement storyline was well washed up.

The Rock, Austin, an entire Raw could be hyped around their appearance. No sense in wasting them.

And HHH. Hell no. The whole point of him being away is that, being away, make people miss him, not see or know anything about him, until he makes that one defining appearance.

Truth be told I hate wrestling now so I'm pretty biased. Wrestling has never been this bad before. But unexpected surprises are nice, seeing a bunch of guys who are considered "legends" except for a few who actually are isn't imo. Well, the thing is I do understand time passing and everything but I don't think this applys to Rock and Austin as it's been a decade and these two are the biggest stars from the 90's. They are the first guys to come from the attitude era to become legends. Rightfully so as they brought the attitude era to it's peak together.

 

[Airfixx]

@ Nation: This was OLD SCHOOL Raw, not LEGENDS Raw anyway....

SCSA, Rock etc., if anything, are the guys that brought in the NEW SCHOOL.

Then if you're talking about how time needs to pass, it's been a decade since the attitude era

See above. The Attitude-era ISN'T the proverbial old school.

Just because Jimmy Snuka is old and jumped off a cage doesn't make him a legend. Legends are guys that mean something

...And if you don't consider a guy like Snuka as a WWF legend then you simply don't know your shit.

Just cos these guys don't mean much to you doesn't make theri appearances "pointless"....

e.g. I marked when Slick came out signing Jive Soul Bro' as I did when I heard The Fink doing his thing and for the Mean Gene segments...

On the other hand, an appearance of NAOLaws, Outsiders or any of the guys from the late 90's you mentioned wouldn't have prompted a reaction from me WHATESOEVER...





I thought the show was great fun and agree they should do it every year.

LOL @ Cole v JR segment.



One moan though... How shit is build-up for SSeries?

JoMo vs Sheamus when we've already seen them have a falls count anywhere match...?

Team Rey v Team Del Rio makes no sense as Del Rio has time and time again refused to work as part of a team. (...And they effective ressurected the SSeries PPV just for this????)

...Besides, enough Rey/Del Rio already - It's like the whole fued is playing out in reverse (A bit like JoMo/Sheamus in that respect.)

No match for Miz? ...Surely that's too much of a give-away that there's gonna be some kinda MITB action.

It's like someone stood up in a production meeting saying "btw, don't forget we got a PPV this weekend - Better make some matches".

Pressumably we get a last-minute Bryan v DiBiase now too.

also, where does Randy Orton say he's gonna punt John Cena's head off in some promo, didn't see it anywhere (not the end).

The promo with Cowboy Bob stood behind Randy that R-Truth interupted.

 

[FabulousRougeauBrother]

It was great to see JR back commenting on that match with the King and Cole.

Would've been REALLY GREAT if Bobby the Brain could have come back to do a match.

I was really expected to see a Sean Mooney sighting on the Old School Raw. Maybe they could've dug out Jonathan Coachman from ESPN SportsCenter.

 

[...god...]

The promo with Cowboy Bob stood behind Randy that R-Truth interupted.

What it was after? Think the Blue youtube upload skipped it.

 

[...god...]

Btw, The Rock and Austin ARE legends, whether you like it or not. Why? Simply because the WWE said so. And uhh.. Rock and Austin did much more for the business than Piper did, sorry. Although obviously I wasn't expecting them there, they know how much the WWE and creative sucks right now (probably why they both left, Austin has cited it on multiple occasions), and unlike the guys that showed up, neither of them need the money, BY FAR. Was surprised as hell to see JR though.

 

[CMS]

Nah Nation, I feel you. I would have liked to see Austin and Rock in there. However, I just don't know if them showing up for one random, unadvertised skit would leave me a good taste in my mouth. Probably I would mark when I saw them, but then, I wouldn't be so sure. I just needed them telling "Stone Cold will be there", but if it was random, then I wouldnt like it.

As for Survivor Series build up, I don't like that the actual announcing of the match happened on the go home show, but the build up for each match is there:

Sheamus vs Jo-Mo has been build since Bragging Rights, so it makes sense. I don't think you're supposed to make a lot out of their past encounters Axis. I am going out on a limb and saying WWE expects you to not even remember they battled in a Falls Count Anywhere Match. Now, the smark in me says those matches was testing for Jo Mo to see how he handled this type of match.

The Del Rio deal I agree with you, altough WWE will probably pass it as now saying that since he's the captain, he doesn't mind being on an actual team.

I think WWE is putting all their chips on the John Cena-Barret-Orton deal, and let me tell you, could I buy this PPV (in my country is practically impossible to do so, streams are my only choice), I'd do it. I would have done it before watching last Monday's raw, because I truly didn't know what Cena was going to do, but what Roddy Piper did on Monday was just amazing. His promo with John Cena was a clinic on how you sell a main event. Fuck the hate for John Cena, he's amazing on the mic, and the Rowdy One, amazing, his delivery, how he changed his tone of voice yet it all seemed real, how he addressed the fact that he never was a WWE Champion, everything just clicked on this segment. This sold Survivor Series


Edge vs Kane is so random at this point it is obvious it won't end clean or have some sort of cheating finish albeit having a pinfall ending. I am just curious on whether they will get a Ladder Match, TLC, Tables or Chairs match at TLC.

 

[McFly...]

Btw, The Rock and Austin ARE legends, whether you like it or not. Why? Simply because the WWE said so

That makes no sense. We should all go see Knucklehead. Why? Simply because the WWE said so. Just because they forced Austin and Rock down our throats and they both amassed great accolades, doesn't mean that they are legends. Its up to us to determine that they are legends. Billy Gunn is a King of the Ring winner. Is he a legend? Big Zeke was the last ECW Champion. Is he a legend? No.

 

[...god...]

That makes no sense. We should all go see Knucklehead. Why? Simply because the WWE said so. Just because they forced Austin and Rock down our throats and they both amassed great accolades, doesn't mean that they are legends. Its up to us to determine that they are legends. Billy Gunn is a King of the Ring winner. Is he a legend? Big Zeke was the last ECW Champion. Is he a legend? No.

What... that was probably the worst analogy ever. And no, you don't decide who is a legend you idiot, that's the entire point. You can like or hate them all you want, but that's like saying you don't think Ric Flair is a Hall of Famer even though he has been inducted into the Hall of Fame. It's the exact same relation, hopefully you can grasp that.

 

[McFly...]

What... that was probably the worst analogy ever. And no, you don't decide who is a legend you idiot, that's the entire point. You can like or hate them all you want, but that's like saying you don't think Ric Flair is a Hall of Famer even though he has been inducted into the Hall of Fame. It's the exact same relation, hopefully you can grasp that.

Yes it's up to the people who watch these guys day in and day out to decide who are legends and who are not. Koko B Wares in the HOF so from your perspcetive, he is a Hall of Famer and deserves it. Also Pete Rose is in the HOF because he did so much for the wrestling business that he deserves it too. WWE's HOF is a fucking joke so your point is null and void. Im saying that they can push Cena, Orton, Barrett, Sheamus down our throats now. But it's up to us to accept them and what they do.


And no need to call me an idiot just because I debated your point. If you can't accept criticism then oh well.

 

[monkeystyle]

Yes it's up to the people who watch these guys day in and day out to decide who are legends and who are not. Koko B Wares in the HOF so from your perspcetive, he is a Hall of Famer and deserves it. Also Pete Rose is in the HOF because he did so much for the wrestling business that he deserves it too. WWE's HOF is a fucking joke so your point is null and void. Im saying that they can push Cena, Orton, Barrett, Sheamus down our throats now. But it's up to us to accept them and what they do.


And no need to call me an idiot just because I debated your point. If you can't accept criticism then oh well.

You're acting like wrestling is an entirely serious business. When it comes down to it, I look at the WWE's Hall of Fame as having two separate wings. One is for the greatest wrestlers of all time and the other is for guys like Koko B. Ware and Pete Rose. They're not legendary wrestlers but they did add a little something in their own way. Koko had a fun gimmick that was pretty well loved in its time. Pete Rose is definitely ingrained in my WrestleMania memories for being repeatedly Tombstoned by Kane.

Wrestling isn't serious all the time, it does fun and goofy things to and some of those things deserve some honour too.

Now that I've successfully debated your point, G1 is right, you're an idiot.

 

[Airfixx]

Guys, guys, g-u-y-s.....

This was OLD SCHOOL Raw, not LEGENDS Raw