Montreal Screwjob II

[Dynamo]

Okay,

1stly, I never said Ted and Cody were the top heels. just that they were majorly talented, and given some decent booking could be massive and infact I believe re-energise the WWE.

2ndly, I don't think the Gimmicky SD of late, with Punk Bangin on about this bloody str8 edge lifestyle is entertaining in the slightest. As a ME heel, he is abismal. Are we forgetting that Prior to him, we had to of the best ME heels of the last Decade in Edga and Jericho, (Although I am aware Jericho was only on the SD brand for a limited time having not lng been drafted from RAW b4 someone points it out)

3rdly, after Ted and Cody, I really like Morrison and Ziggler. Think they have so much to offer and will benefit from a good story and some inevitably great matches.

4thly, SD number 1 show, erm.... did we not see the Orton punting every one in the skull for some of the best scenes WWE has delivered in the past 2 years. OK, its dwindled since we see HHH attack Orton at home with a sledge hammer, but the loss of Edge and the absence of Taker has seen an even bigger impact on the SD brand.

And BTW, I too was not happy with the way Orton Bitched out after meerly smelling the STF, but hey. Ive come to expect it.

And as for its relevance, my original case in point was simply this whole 'screwjob' was about as unpredictable as punching your girlfriends lover in the chops!!!

 

[JurassicBonez]

Also, Do not lose sight of how big a deal it was for him to not only beat Jeff clean in TLC, but then to retire him clean in a cage match the following week.

I never understood the big hype over Punk beating Jeff in the TLC. They were hyping it up in being Jeff's match, yet of all the TLC matches that Jeff has been in, he's never won a single one. So odds were in favor of Punk.

 

[Airfixx]

1stly, I never said Ted and Cody were the top heels. just that they were majorly talented, and given some decent booking could be massive and infact I believe re-energise the WWE.

Your original statement: "And really, Smackdown eclipse RAW, WTF!!! Has no one been watchin how DiBiase and Rhodes have been displaying that they really are two of the most talented wrestlersto emerge for a freakin long time! CM Punk, top heel. Pleaseee!!!"

Appologies - Maybe I mis-interpretted your comments, but I don't see where Punk has any bearing on the rest of that paragraph otherwise.

2ndly, I don't think the Gimmicky SD of late, with Punk Bangin on about this bloody str8 edge lifestyle is entertaining in the slightest.

Gimmicky? How so? Granted the WHC has changed hands too much, but otherwise dunno what you're referring to.

As a ME heel, he is abismal.

I'll need a little more than that if I'm to address that opinion.

Are we forgetting that Prior to him, we had to of the best ME heels of the last Decade in Edga and Jericho, (Although I am aware Jericho was only on the SD brand for a limited time having not lng been drafted from RAW b4 someone points it out)

Not "forgetting" them, but tell me, are they the #1 heels on SD right now? ...NO.

3rdly, after Ted and Cody, I really like Morrison and Ziggler. Think they have so much to offer and will benefit from a good story and some inevitably great matches.

Just an opinon but, I think we've seen more potential delivered upon since the draft by both JoMo & Dolph than we have from Ted & Cody.

4thly, SD number 1 show, erm.... did we not see the Orton punting every one in the skull for some of the best scenes WWE has delivered in the past 2 years. OK, its dwindled since we see HHH attack Orton at home with a sledge hammer, but the loss of Edge and the absence of Taker has seen an even bigger impact on the SD brand.

The stuff you mention pre-dates WM, the draft and the time-frame to which I origanlly refered. Raw on the whole has been terrible since the draft save for the recent improved treatment of Ted & Cody which, as per earlier post, falls way short of matching up to the positives on SD in the last 6 months.

And BTW, I too was not happy with the way Orton Bitched out after meerly smelling the STF, but hey. Ive come to expect it.

And as for its relevance, my original case in point was simply this whole 'screwjob' was about as unpredictable as punching your girlfriends lover in the chops!!!

Yeah, you could have put 2 & 2 together given the Montreal factor, but seeing as this is a KAYFAYBE swerve (and not a genuine screwjob) would you not concur that explaination behind it all is the most important thing? As already said, I'll reserve my judgement until I see how & why Teddy Long ties in with all this.

I never understood the big hype over Punk beating Jeff in the TLC. They were hyping it up in being Jeff's match, yet of all the TLC matches that Jeff has been in, he's never won a single one. So odds were in favor of Punk.

In isolation, maybe not such a big deal but look at that week and it's events as a whole... If Jeff was still on the roster everyone would have been screaming "BURIAL!!!" - They totally fed Jeff to Punk and all this was before the arrest at a time theyd have wanted him back.

 

[Dynamo]

Okay,
I dont know how to do the quote thing so I'll go in order.

1. I was meerly saying that, SD isn't better than RAW and CM not a 'good' Heel. Leaning to the opinion that CM punk is why SD is at best, poor. The use of the word 'Top' was a little confusing as he clearly being pushed as the top heel on the brand, I just think hes shit!

2. Gimicky; Punk turning from a honest 'school of the game type' to this self righteous mumbling idiot, who uses the same phrases and still manages to fumble them, week in week out. Jeff Hardy's pathetic 3 week reign. Taker comes out of no where into this dog shit fued with Punk. And worst of all, Crime Tyme, with, " Bringing the, Bringing the, bringing the hood to who" and the ridiculous, hood dictionary nonsense. Embarrasing that they pigeon hole races still in WWE

3. As a ME Heel, Preety much covered in the previous two points

4. Obviously they aren't there at the moment, but when you go from quality to dogshit it makes the brand look silly and that they can't plan for fuck all. Building Ziggler would have been a better bet imo, or a heart breaking mysterio turn. (Impossible I know, but anything is better than Chump imo)

5. Definately not if you include Breaking point. Which Cody and Ted basically saved from all embarrasment. Ziggler had a push and a couple IC matches with Rey, (You would expect any decent upcomer to shine there). And Morrison has had the same plus carried Punk through a very good match. What have Legacy had to work with B4 DX. Run ins on EVERY Orton match. What the heck can they do bout that?

6. IMO the last 6 months on RAW, which I agree have been below par, still simply dick on SD, apart fom maybe the 2/3 months where Edge lost the Belt and teamed up with Jericho. And thats me being diplomatic

7. Teddy already told Vince, " Ive got something special at Breaking Point". We knew was in Montreal. You knew that Punk could NEVER beat Taker clean, in a submission match. The WHC has changed hands more times than Orton recieves his baby oil perscription. Is anyone seeing the signs?

Couldn't really care less bout Hardy or Punk. For all I care, send em back to ECW!

 

[Airfixx]

Punk: They just used his fucking Hardy up as the catalyst of his heel turn - SO FAR, he still has the same approach and attitude towards 'the game'... Correct me if I'm wrong but he has yet to cheat to gain a victory. (Subject to the explaination of the BP match). As for his promo's I can't recall him doing anything approaching "fumbling" or "mumbling" through his promo's (Feel free to link me to a Youtube example if you can be arsed.) - He's been coherent in what he's had to say and how he's expressed it.

Raw/Legacy: You've still not answered my original question... What has Raw offered in the last 6 months that equates to it being better than my list of good shit SD has done duriong the same period?

All you've effectively said is SD is shit and Raw hasn't give Ted/Cody enough of a break. If you think SD has been shit then outright argue against my list.... You cited NOTHING in terms of positives for Raw during this time-frame.

(...Don't tell me, the ZZ-Top appearance was awesome, right? : P )


You can't justifiably compare what HAS happened on SD against what you think SHOULD have happened on Raw. In fact, if Raw isn't using Ted & Cody well enough, like you say, then that's a fail on Raw's part..... (For what it's worth, SD doesn't seem to have a prob pushing the guys I already mentioned). Similarly you can't criticize SD for not turning guys heel whilst in the same sentence conur it's not possible to start with.


In fact, I don't even get the impression that you watch SD that closely.... Edge & Jericho were together for a matter of weeks not "2/3months" (Jeff's never been on ECW either whilst we're at it).

 

[Dynamo]

Punk: So we don't remember him attacking Morrison after he beat him Clean then? As for fumbling, I have no idea how i'd begin to find any of it on Youtube, but I'll have a bash. I oly joined like yest so didn't think previously to note exact times of his poor promo's. I will do from no on, but if you watch closely, he really does. Um's and repeating lines he's just said.

Okay, so RAW and why its better than SD: Tha guest announcer thing was a great fuckin idea. Okay, they misd a trick to build Legacy, but as stand alone shows, MDM, Dusty Rhodes, and ofcourse Trump were decent shows with good matches. DX returning is preety sweet, the build to that was good. It was nice to see HHH was actually human and didn't roll over Orton when he returned in the back of the ambulance and what not. Not to mention the Stretcher match, which was pretty damn good! I'm not sure if you want me to go week by week on this???? I preety much addressed the Morrison, Ziggler thing. I like those guys. And I addressed the other stuff. SD shouldn't be main eventing PPV's. And Punk simply isn't a confident enough, accomplished enough Heel, who isn't as good as what we have come to expect from the ME heel on both the Brands to be honest. (Edge, Jericho, Orton).

I agree, its a massive Fail on RAW to not have done enough with Ted and Cody, but they still offer the best show imo and for reasons above.

To close, unfortunately, I do watch SD, every flippin week, in hope and prayer that they push Morrison and Ziggler properly and save the Brand. I'm sorry, with Punk they just don't have enough gas. I don't know how much clearer to put it, except take the most recent heels on both Brands in Edge and Orton. Does Punk even come close? Look down the roster, with the exception of Morrison and Z, who else is there of note who can hold a feud and a match. In comparrison to Raw, where you have the obvious ones as well as a resurggent Mark henry and MVP, Kofi, The MIZ (Debatable tho), Show and Jericho (Because they actually have opponents) and of course the guest host thing.

 

[Great One]

Dynamo is obviously not substance/drug free.

 

[noumenon]

^obviously.

Smackdown shouldn't be main eventing PPV's because Punk isn't confident or accomplished enough????? Punk's entire gimmick is about confidence..and KNOWING he is better than everyone else because of his life style. The guy has been cutting the consistently best promos in the company over the past few months. And by your logic WWE shouldn't even give him the oppurtunity to be "accomplished" enough to be in the main event. Apparently WWE is looking at him as one of the top young stars in the business today...thus is position on the card. You're saying because the guy isn't as good or polished as guys like Edge, or Jericho he's not worth your time? Both of those guys have been in the business for 10+ years. Punk has been main eventing for what....4 months?
Your entire argument is comparing Punk to Orton and Edge without giving any real reasons for disliking him.
Stumbling promos? Never seen one...IN FACT...far from it.
Horrible matches? never seen one of those either.

 

[Airfixx]

Punk: So we don't remember him attacking Morrison after he beat him Clean then?

I said he dhadn't heeled FOR the win.

As for fumbling, I have no idea how i'd begin to find any of it on Youtube, but I'll have a bash. I oly joined like yest so didn't think previously to note exact times of his poor promo's. I will do from no on,

No need to be faecetious... I said IF you can be arsed. Why should I care if you don't PROVE me wrong?

but if you watch closely, he really does. Um's and repeating lines he's just said.

I will.

Okay, so RAW and why its better than SD: Tha guest announcer thing was a great fuckin idea. Okay, they misd a trick to build Legacy, but as stand alone shows, MDM, Dusty Rhodes, and ofcourse Trump were decent shows with good matches. DX returning is preety sweet, the build to that was good. It was nice to see HHH was actually human and didn't roll over Orton when he returned in the back of the ambulance and what not. Not to mention the Stretcher match, which was pretty damn good! I'm not sure if you want me to go week by week on this????

:Exhales:

So why was it necessary to 'drag' that out of you? You're eloquent enough and appear to wanna talk/debate a little so what gives? (Apart from the obvious waste of my time)....

Anyway, can't say I agree that it amounts to a great deal over 6 months, but s'all reasonable enough, given that that we're voicing opinions rather than facts.

SD shouldn't be main eventing PPV's.

(...Back to 'facts' again. :roll: )

...Punk's matches with Jeff would argue otherwise (and before you go 'there' , I'm not the biggest fan of either guy).

For what it's worth, if you'd said, he shouldn't be relied upon to carry a brand I might have agreed with you.

....take the most recent heels on both Brands in Edge and Orton. Does Punk even come close?

For fucks sake he only fully turned heel approx 2 months ago - It's ridiculous to expect him to be on Edge or Orton's level (besides let's face it Orton - and whoever writes his shit - has only really truly nailed it in the last 18 months or so himself).

Look down the roster, with the exception of Morrison and Z, who else is there of note who can hold a feud and a match.

Yet they still do a hell of a lot more from week to week with the roster they have... Even if they don't get the mic time, everyone on SD has a little somethin' going on. Knox/Finaly, Truth/McEntire, Kane/Khali, Harts/CT....

In comparison to Raw, where you have the obvious ones as well as a resurgent Mark henry and MVP, Kofi, The MIZ (Debatable tho), Show and Jericho (Because they actually have opponents) and of course the guest host thing.

...LOL you forgot to mention Chavo v Hornswaggle!


Seriously tho', I say again, potential counts for nothing in this debate and the above para' means nothing if they're not gonna actually book them in proper fueds....


*Kofi can't talk in his gimmick accent.
*MVP/Swagger stalled and restarted only to bear VERY little fruit and both have otherwise done fuck all since the draft (again, save for the last few weeks).
*Same for Mark Henry.... Steppin' to Orton only to see nothing more come of it.
*Show & Jericho are tri-branded atm thanks to the tag belts so they no more count in Raw's favour than they do against SD.


...And how you can champion the guest host thing as a whole is entirely beyond me!

 

[kingovkings]

I cant be arsed to really go into the whole argument thing coz I'm tired tbh. But all i will say is you cant really judge or compare a guy(Punk) Who hasn't been in the E that long. To guys like Orton/Edge who have been around like zillions of years and are Polished to the point of Shining brighter than the sun. Punk hasn't even been Heel that long, So to compare him to Orton/Edge is ridicules. Jeez give the guy a chance for Christ sake. Lets face it The Edge's and Orton's aren't gonna be around forever and we need new Guys stepping up. For my 2 cents i think Punk is doing a good job at the mo.

 

[noumenon]

Going out a on a limb here..(and I love Edge)...but Punk is doing a better job (or is at least more interesting) than Edge had been over the past year.

 

[LadyHotrod]

I LOVED it! I was one of the only people to call a win for Punk in another forum and people kept saying how dumb an opinion that was..

Guess they're kicking their faces in right now.

 

[Dynamo]

Okay, I really don't do this internet thing well, and you lot obviously do. If someone wants to enlighten me how to quote each paragrapgh then id appreciate it. For now, ima continue with how im doin.

1. Okay cool, he hasn't cheated a W, But not losing graciously and all that was obviously not part of the Punk who was the 'student of the game' type. Not to mention that he assaulted Jeff on a number of occasions outside the ring, but hey, it was part of his heel turn so maybe its a mute point.

2. Not being faecetious at all. I can see alot of you guys do the whole wrestling debate regularly and therefore are more aware of details than I usually am as I rarely talk bout it. I honestly will do from now on if I continue to post on these boards.

3. Cool, and if he does it on Fri, I'll make sure I pause it and note it and see if you agree.

4. You wern't dragging anything out of me. You said why SD is better, I clearly stated Y RAW is, (IMO). Look at your reasons for y SD is the top brand. Not much more in there. N fair point, the fukin hornswaggle and Chavo thing is total BS. N I used to really like Chavo in WCW, its particularly embarrasing. But lets also not forget Teddy 'Fuckin' Long and his ridiculous suits and 'Hey Playa' BS either. But hey, as u said, its all opinion.

5. I don't care for Punk or JH so there matches mean F all to me. Again, purely an opinion. And thats exactly what I think, he shouldn't be so heavily relied upon to carry the Brand. But I don't believe he has the calibre to be a top Heel full stop. You clearly do, as do the WWE.

6. Okay, cool, maybe I didn't put it great. It isn't fair to compare Punk to Orton/Edge/etc now. So look back to when these guys came in. Still not as good imo. (Edge was fuckin awesome from day 1!)Dnt think he is a terrific wrestler, nor do I like the sound of his voice. He just seems to whine and doesn't say anything with conviction. (Hence my comment re: confidence/accomplished. I mean in terms of acting)

7. Knox and finaly are clumsey oafs. Can't stand there matches. Are you being honest when you mention them? Would really like truth if they didnt make him come to the ring fuckin rappin, and dressing up like some dumb buck tooth idiot(Shit Gimmick). Mcentire, you haven't seen much of him and neither have I so can you really bring him to the table? But I'll conceed, he could be good and the mic stuff he's done so far has been cool. Kane was once great, giving him matches with the stiff Khali does fuck all for him, surely we can agree on that. Have you ever seen one Khali match you've enjoyed? O, and fuck all that indian dancing bullshit. (Shit Gimmick). Like the Harts, but give them a freaking storyline please. CT lost all my respect with the Word up nonsense. (Shit Gimmick) IMO RAW has a far superior Roster.

8. Already expressed my Chavo Hornswaggle opinion. Its terrible. I fast forward every promo and match with them.

9. You cant say potential counts for nothing and previously list your wrestlers who most have not had a feud or proper story on SD themselves. P.S I was saying that Show and Jericho having potential opponents, in DX, Legacy and MVP/WSM makes them more suited and entertaining on the RAW Brand.

O, and I was never championing the guest host thing as a whole, but well over half have been preety damn good, Trump, MDM, Rhodes, Dude from entourage (Can't member his name, dont watch it), Seth Green, etc.

Look, I'm very sure we could continue on like this all day long, so to summerize, I guess I just don't like Punk, thought the finish at BP was shit and predictable, and SD is not the show it once was. Guess it's just my opinion and you don't have to agree. I'll just add, I'm from England, I can only assume that you guys are all american. We have traditionally always liked our wrestling in very different ways. I like the old school, Born in reality, Kayfabe till you die, realistic wrestling. That isn't always the case with Americans in my experience. (And Bret Harts I might add). You guys, particularly nowadays, maybe take more from the drama. I don't know, maybe thats a generalisation?

Anywhoo, enjoyed the convo!

 

[Dynamo]

Going out a on a limb here..(and I love Edge)...but Punk is doing a better job (or is at least more interesting) than Edge had been over the past year.

^^ O, and definately not!! I don't know how you came to that one. Infact when they were about to have the whole triple threat thing and Edge came out and was like, 'Your lifestly is straight "Edge", your trying to be like me', or something along those lines, Edge showed Punk exactly how it is done!!!

 

[Airfixx]

1. Okay cool, he hasn't cheated a W, But not losing graciously and all that was obviously not part of the Punk who was the 'student of the game' type. Not to mention that he assaulted Jeff on a number of occasions outside the ring, but hey, it was part of his heel turn so maybe its a mute point.

So you want him to lose graciously, not cheat, not beat anyone down and not whine?

....How the hell DO you expect a heel to get heat then?

If you retain all the righteous elements of his character then he'd still be a face. LOL

4. You wern't dragging anything out of me. You said why SD is better, I clearly stated Y RAW is, (IMO). Look at your reasons for y SD is the top brand. Not much more in there. N fair point, the fukin hornswaggle and Chavo thing is total BS. N I used to really like Chavo in WCW, its particularly embarrasing. But lets also not forget Teddy 'Fuckin' Long and his ridiculous suits and 'Hey Playa' BS either. But hey, as u said, its all opinion.

There is a distinct difference in trashing SD in order to make another look good and making RAW look good in it's own right. You took the former approach until that last post.

5. I don't care for Punk or JH so there matches mean F all to me. Again, purely an opinion.

That's fine, but the point is your emotional attachment to certain characters is no reflection on the quality of their matches.

Granted, if you don't like TLC matches (for example) and shit like that then, again, your taste/opinion, BUT that's not to say it was a shit match.

7. Knox and finaly are clumsey oafs. Can't stand there matches. Are you being honest when you mention them? Would really like truth if they didnt make him come to the ring fuckin rappin, and dressing up like some dumb buck tooth idiot(Shit Gimmick). Mcentire, you haven't seen much of him and neither have I so can you really bring him to the table? But I'll conceed, he could be good and the mic stuff he's done so far has been cool. Kane was once great, giving him matches with the stiff Khali does fuck all for him, surely we can agree on that. Have you ever seen one Khali match you've enjoyed? O, and fuck all that indian dancing bullshit. (Shit Gimmick). Like the Harts, but give them a freaking storyline please. CT lost all my respect with the Word up nonsense. (Shit Gimmick) IMO RAW has a far superior Roster.

You completely missed the point... I'm not championing any of those individuals or the programs their involved with, I'm illustrating that SD on the whole has been doing MUCH more with their roster than Raw has since the draft... Fuck, even Vince McMahon has been rumoured to be displeased with the lack of progress on Raw wince WM... Shawn Michaels comes back and is apparently dismayed about how no-one had been built in is absence... Why do you find this so hard to acknowledge?

Look at the Raw roster by comparrison.

Masters, Kenrick, Noble, D-Lo Brown (last year admittedly) and others no doubt... Barely worth them being employed. Look at Primo and Carlito they didn't even get to have a proper fued after they split. MVP & Henry had been floating about doing fuck all until they teamed up... Shall I continue?

There's been PPVs this year where the A-Show has only 2 matches on the card.... What does THAT say? They hadn't developed any storylines worth the PPV time.

You cant say potential counts for nothing and previously list your wrestlers who most have not had a feud or proper story on SD themselves.

Again... Point & context missed.... See above.

....and I was never championing the guest host thing as a whole

Direct quote from your listing Raw positives.... "and of course the guest host thing."

That my friend, as expressed, is a general appreciation.

Look, I'm very sure we could continue on like this all day long.....

It has been known.... ;o]

I'm English too btw, LOL, and 'cut my teeth' as it were on Savage, Hogan, Rude, Demolition, Hart Foundation, Bossman, Perfect and guys like that.