For the people against the "part time" wrestlers

[Keith]

WWE's ratings have been down pretty much the whole time Cena has been a main eventer which is a lot longer than Punk, that is one thing people don't factor in. John Cena as he is now can not go any further he is holding WWE back.

 

[Defiant]

But it begs the question "when do you give up on a guy?"

You're making it sound like the WWE should push a guy until he sticks, regardless of talent. They've had their fair share of wrestlers billed as the next big thing since the Attitude Era ended and arguably only one has stood the test, being Cena. You have to have a certain amount of patience for sure, look how many gimmicks it took for Kane to become a top name for example, but there has to be a cut-off point where you go "ok, this guy is useless lets bin him".

Wrestlemania has traditionally been the place where special attractions are featured anyway, it's been the case for years so I don't see what the furore is about some midcarders not getting paychecks.

That's a good point. I guess at some point, you give a guy plenty of years and plenty of tries, like Shelton Benjamin, but in the end there's just a limit on what you can do with them. Not everyone can be main eventers, but still if you can ever hope to get the most out of any given talent you have to keep trying with them.

My issue there is that in recent years there have been quite a few people WWE has allowed to slip through their fingers in their focus to practicly deify Cena. Either WWE gave them the initial boost but left them to their own devices with nothing to do for too long, or have yet to be given the focus they perhaps deserve. But you've got a point.

 

[Defiant]

You can make excuses until you are blue in the face he ust hasn't been a draw....ratings don't lie.

lame as Cena has been his segments are draws.

Punk didn't draw, it can't be simpler than that.

But it isn't.

The Punk example was only one of many with my overall grievance with the WWE's booking team, but on this point I've said the same time almost every time: The reason, at least from what I conclude, Punk wasn't drawing as champion is because half his reign (interestingly, when he was rivalling Cena as top babyface), we was booked like a mid-card title holder in his fueds with Jericho and Bryan. He's no less entertining on the mic or in the ring than any other main event player, but his lengthy reign was mostly overshadowed by whatever John Cena, Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Triple H or Undertaker were doing, when you go back and look at the setup of each show or PPV card. Cena/Laurinaitus headlined over him ffs.

You don't like Punk, but c'mon. That is NOT how you book a WWE Champion. And before you counter with "Well of course, because those guys can draw" or something equally simplistic and dismissive, how exactly could ANYONE get over as champion against those odds?

 

[The Cork]

[MENTION=39]Keith[/MENTION]

Ratings sunk to their lowest since '97 when Punk held the strap.

I don't even mean to keep falling back on the ratings arguments, but when you are making a point that Punk has been successfull while belittling Cena it needs to be said. Punk clearly isn't as popular as being made out, because fans are turning off in their droves while he is on TV.

You are making the jump from a crowd pop meaning you are a draw. No correlation there at all.

 

[PHX]

Ugh at this ratings shit esp trying to blame one guy for the ratings esp when in most cases there is more than one guy in the segment or match. Don't even know how this came up during this topic. To mute your point though if you want to go with the whole Punk was making people tune out pretty much the whole time he has been heel his segments were the few things that gained viewers not lost them. So saying he drove viewers away is nonsense when there is more proof that the switch to 3 hours caused that change and should be put on the whole show overall not just one or two guys. Esp when Cena was just as much the main feature of the show as Punk was.

Not that I give a damn about who or what draws ratings and don't see why people on forums use them to either jerk off their favorite wrestler or tear down their least favorite just needed to point that out since I keep seeing you claim Punk is the reason for the ratings dropping. He isn't some big ratings draw but he isn't turning people away either. It is a 3 hour show with a lot of segments and matches that the champion isn't in so blaming that one guy for people maybe not wanting to sit through other stuff for whatever their reason may be just doesn't make any sense.

 

[The Cork]

The whole show's ratings are down because they are Punk-centric.

People knew he got the lions share of TV time, so tune out/don't bother tuning in. Just like Triple H kicking off every Raw in 2003 with a half-hour long winded promo, it puts people off.

WWE pushing so many indy wrestlers failed hard so they had no choice but to bring back elite stars. Punk could never be called elite, he would be a jobber to the stars 15 years ago and will be remembered in the same vein as King Mabel 15 years from now. He's a black mark on the wrestling business and theres no reason he is in the spot he is aprt from he must of slept with the bosses daughter.

 

[PHX]

That is bullshit because it isn't just Punk centric but Cena/AJ too. Even if Cena is not in the main event he has the main storyline that sometimes get more T.V time than Punk's stuff. Your vendetta against guys who came from indy is your outlook don't try to make it everyone who watches Raw outlook too. I'm not gonna stay on this for too long cause I already didn't want this to turn into Blue ratings conversation. Good for you if you hate any small guy who came from a indy but don't try and speak for every single viewer because I know some people who don't watch Raw or tune out of Raw for reasons that don't have anything to do with the main focus people and I'm sure there is more.

 

[Tapout]

Most fans don't even know about the Indies. The "Casual" fans that you guys talk about so much don't pay attention to the indies. So saying that WWE needs to stop of failed indy people is stupid because the casual fan wouldn't know the difference between an indy legend and a WWE made star.

To think people are tuning out JUST to not see Punk is simply narrow minded.

 

[We Are Legion]

Plus referring to Punk as a "failed indy talent" is just laughable and ludicrous considering EVERY wrestler in WWE started in the indies. So did Stone Cold Steve Austin (WCCW), Hulk Hogan (CWF), Ric Flair (AWA), and damn nearly every other major star except the Rock. So really, stop with this "BAAAAAH INDY CRAP" nonsense because it really exposes your cluelessness of wrestling.

 

[The Cork]

That is bullshit because it isn't just Punk centric but Cena/AJ too. Even if Cena is not in the main event he has the main storyline that sometimes get more T.V time than Punk's stuff. Your vendetta against guys who came from indy is your outlook don't try to make it everyone who watches Raw outlook too. I'm not gonna stay on this for too long cause I already didn't want this to turn into Blue ratings conversation. Good for you if you hate any small guy who came from a indy but don't try and speak for every single viewer because I know some people who don't watch Raw or tune out of Raw for reasons that don't have anything to do with the main focus people and I'm sure there is more.

It's not me making out nobody is watching, it's the ratings.

Daniel Bryan lost 1.5m viewers in the five months he was champion, so please don't make out it's an indy vendetta, these guys are just very boring and too small :

Wrestling has traditionally been about OTT, huge guys beating each other up. When they changed their direction in 2010 and went to no personality 5ft 5in, 150lbs guys headlining, the buyrates dried up like the Sahara. No coincidence?

Most fans don't even know about the Indies. The "Casual" fans that you guys talk about so much don't pay attention to the indies. So saying that WWE needs to stop of failed indy people is stupid because the casual fan wouldn't know the difference between an indy legend and a WWE made star.

To think people are tuning out JUST to not see Punk is simply narrow minded.

Erm...yeah, casual fans don't know about the indies, so why does it make any sense to push a triple threat of vanilla midgets (The Shield) straight from the off and expect people to care? What Moxley or Tyler Black did holds no weight now they are Ambrose and Rollins. Hence why old guys are given millions to come back and save the ratings from falling off a cliff.

Plus referring to Punk as a "failed indy talent" is just laughable and ludicrous considering EVERY wrestler in WWE started in the indies. So did Stone Cold Steve Austin (WCCW), Hulk Hogan (CWF), Ric Flair (AWA), and damn nearly every other major star except the Rock. So really, stop with this "BAAAAAH INDY CRAP" nonsense because it really exposes your cluelessness of wrestling.

Fail, WCCW and AWA weren't indy feds, they were WWF's big competitors in the territory days.

Thats besides the point anyway, why are you pretending Hogan and Austin werent 100% WWF made? Austin was a blond haired midcarder when he was in World Class and Hogan was popular but hardly on the perch Vince put him on.

Read more 80's Observer dirtsheets before accusing others of cluelessness....

 

[We Are Legion]

Fail, WCCW and AWA weren't indy feds, they were WWF's big competitors in the territory days.

Thats besides the point anyway, why are you pretending Hogan and Austin werent 100% WWF made? Austin was a blond haired midcarder when he was in World Class and Hogan was popular but hardly on the perch Vince put him on.

Read more 80's Observer dirtsheets before accusing others of cluelessness....

WCCW and AWA were WWF's "biggest competitors"?

Holy SHIT you don't know a fucking thing about wrestling.

And you make it seem like WWF didn't also come close to ruining Austin with that atrocious Ringmaster gimmick. The only reason he took off was because they let him do what he was doing in ECW, which was pretty damn close to the "Stone Cold" character. And AWA and Verne Gagne were ENTIRELY responsible for the creation of Hulk Hogan's character. Did you even see Hulk Hogan during his first sting in WWF? He was a goddamned heel for christ sake. I really hope you're just trolling not seriously this oblivious.

 

[The Cork]

Hurr durrrr. no, not "the biggest", they were big competitors though. I'm aware there were other rivals too like JCP and the NWA spin offs but I'm going on the ones named in your post.

Where did Austin draw money as a top name. Nowhere but the WWF. Whether they "nearly ruined" him is irrelevant, they made him themseves and he was a no mark in ECW.

Hulkamania blew up in the WWF. He was nowhere near as well known in AWA as when he went to the WWF, what are you talking about.

The WWE is the be all and end all, if you aren't there you arent anybody.

 

[Chris]

Hurr durrrr. no, not "the biggest", they were big competitors though. I'm aware there were other rivals too like JCP and the NWA spin offs but I'm going on the ones named in your post.

Where did Austin draw money as a top name. Nowhere but the WWF. Whether they "nearly ruined" him is irrelevant, they made him themseves and he was a no mark in ECW.

Hulkamania blew up in the WWF. He was nowhere near as well known in AWA as when he went to the WWF, what are you talking about.

The WWE is the be all and end all, if you aren't there you arent anybody.

That wasn't your argument at all. Your argument was that WWE "made" those guys when they didn't. Austin & Hulk's characters were made before they were in WWE, but they didn't get big until they were in WWE. Huge difference.

 

[The Cork]

Ugh, if nobody saw them then how were they "made" elsewhere?

It's like me saying the Hardy Boys were made in OMEGA, or Sheamus in Irish Whip Wrestling. They weren't noticed until they got to the WWF and didn't have the same gimmick as much as you want to pretend they did. Stone Cold was not the same as Steve Austin in ECW.

 

[Chris]

Okay, now that we know your definition of "made" is something completely different than everyone else, I can probably explain this better.

By made, what Legion and I mean is that WWE came up with the character, and the wrestler had hardly any experience before coming to WWE such as Rock. Austin had tons of experience, and the character that was so famous, he made in ECW. Hogan had made his rounds by the time he took off, and the Hulkamania character was already pretty big in AWA. WWE didn't make Austin or Hulk, they just cashed in on them.