Went the F*ck Off on the Product

[Zardnaar]

Oh, nobody's disputing that. That's a problem, but WWE needs advertisers to keep afloat. And besides, targeting kids NOW would be a good move, because this is a cycle that lends into maturing the product down the line. You think WWE wouldn't be doing the Attitude Era stuff if it wasn't for the kids? No, it helps. I was a kid when I started watching wrestling with a childhood friend of mine. WWF turned into Attitude Era, because there was enough interest for that era's superstars. Today, they have to build up new stars to get to that point. We're never getting the Stone Cold character back, but surely The Rock kind of gimmick which they're trying to build with Roman Reigns, with that badass soldier look.

WWE has the market, the problem is maintaining the marketshare/mindshare. You can't do that unless you have someone like Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and more. Most retired already, so they have to rely on Triple H, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Hardy Boyz, Golddust, Usos, and so on. They have to at least replace Undertaker, The Rock, John Cena, and whatnot. John Cena is in WWE, but as a part-timer, and he's done everything in WWE already. There's not much left that WWE can do with Cena, but they use him for star power.

The problem right now, is the booking, the storylines. They're not compelling enough. For example, the House of Horrors match was WWE's opportunity to go full frontal Hardcore, but they again - fuck it up. Not just from a storyline perspective, but also from a booking standpoint, and keeping watchers interested in the match. They did better with the Roman Reigns thing at the end of Payback.

There needs to be a middle ground where WWE is willing to go far, but not too far. Vince McMahon is keeping a tight leash on these WWE stars, and it's doing him a disservice as Founder/Chairman of WWE. He's currently C.E.O., but that's not even the problem; it's him micomanaging things from the Booking side/Character building side. He needs to let someone else do those things, rather than doing it himself. Your job as C.E.O. is to grow your company into a multi-billion dollar company, and make money for investors. Problem is, you can't do that if your program is too PG13, kissing customers asses, and adhering to Advertisers.

The other problem is that WWE currently isn't doing what customers - the fans what they want.

May not be strictly true. Hardcore fans yes but they made more money in 2016 than they did in the AE. Adjusted for inflation etc maybe not but until it hits them in the pocket a'la 1996/7 they won't change anything.

To really get over though they need to relax a bit on the scripted promos and book some stars better. They have the raw material the problem in VInce.

NXT is good, the UK champion thing was really good, AJ is your new Shawn Michaels, Roman needs a heel turn (suck up the merchandising loss or you might even sell more), Charlotte, Alexa, KO, AJ, Roman, Braun, Seth they are your stars IMHO.

 

[InSaNe]

May not be strictly true. Hardcore fans yes but they made more money in 2016 than they did in the AE. Adjusted for inflation etc maybe not but until it hits them in the pocket a'la 1996/7 they won't change anything.

To really get over though they need to relax a bit on the scripted promos and book some stars better. They have the raw material the problem in VInce.

NXT is good, the UK champion thing was really good, AJ is your new Shawn Michaels, Roman needs a heel turn (suck up the merchandising loss or you might even sell more), Charlotte, Alexa, KO, AJ, Roman, Braun, Seth they are your stars IMHO.

You don't get it. The whole point of the Attitude Era was to attract casuals. Kind-of like what Activision has with Call of Duty every year. Right now, from what I understand, WWE has some casuals, but mostly mom and pops with kids. Stone Cold Steve Austin's shtick is what attracted the casuals so far to have a lot of media coverage. Austin was the Cena of the 90's. Difference is, instead of attracting casuals, he (Cena) attracted the kids with the whole comicbook-to-life superhero thing.

AJ Styles, KO, Alexa, Charlotte, Braun, and Roman are stars to hardcore WWE watchers, I mean, the real loyal WWE fans. But outside of that? WWE doesn't have shit. They even have to call up The Undertaker every year (until retirement, of course). They called up The Rock, SCSA, Hogan, Kevin Nash, Goldberg, Mick Foley, and most recently Kurt Angle. They do this to boost ratings or sell more units of a merchandise, or another one of WWE's agendas. They do this every year near Wrestlemania.

But yes, NXT is good, not a fan of the UK Tournament for Chanmpionship thing, but hey, I like the look of that Championship - I'll give it that. And to get over they need to relax scripted promos/better booking.

 

[WholeFN'Moe]

It's sucked for 15 years now.... it will suck for the next 15 years because Vince has stupid ideas.... the only good ones he ever had were stolen from other people & now there IS no other competition to steal from. He's the most overrated promoter of all time and his stupid ideas will keep failing over & over again because he will keep trying them until he dies.

I really hope Billy & NWA gives him a run for his money

 

[Zardnaar]

You don't get it. The whole point of the Attitude Era was to attract casuals. Kind-of like what Activision has with Call of Duty every year. Right now, from what I understand, WWE has some casuals, but mostly mom and pops with kids. Stone Cold Steve Austin's shtick is what attracted the casuals so far to have a lot of media coverage. Austin was the Cena of the 90's. Difference is, instead of attracting casuals, he (Cena) attracted the kids with the whole comicbook-to-life superhero thing.

AJ Styles, KO, Alexa, Charlotte, Braun, and Roman are stars to hardcore WWE watchers, I mean, the real loyal WWE fans. But outside of that? WWE doesn't have shit. They even have to call up The Undertaker every year (until retirement, of course). They called up The Rock, SCSA, Hogan, Kevin Nash, Goldberg, Mick Foley, and most recently Kurt Angle. They do this to boost ratings or sell more units of a merchandise, or another one of WWE's agendas. They do this every year near Wrestlemania.

But yes, NXT is good, not a fan of the UK Tournament for Chanmpionship thing, but hey, I like the look of that Championship - I'll give it that. And to get over they need to relax scripted promos/better booking.

I'm 38 and they could not duplicate the AE even if they tried. I was the target audience and the late 90's were the cultural zeitgeist of the time. We were kinda angry back then lol. The youth of the 90's had a different cultural PoV just like the hippies in the 60's. The 90's grunge for example burst onto the scene, killed off all the big hair 80's bands for the most part.

If they tried the duplicate the AE you owuld have a case of "been there done that/seen that". ANd how do do you top it? Have Game of Thrones type sexposition, and kill a few wrestlers to top HiAC 1998?

They rely on the legends because they have been crap at creating new stars of which the PG era has nothing to do with it. Hogan, Bret, Shawn, and the NWO for example were all PG. Going TV 14 won't fix shit booking or an out of touch Vince. No one gets over because of 50/50 booking, to obvious pushes, scripted promos, to much content (over exposure) and to many titles.

 

[Tom Colohue]

I'm sorry, Shawn Michaels and the NWO were PG? Have you ever watched them back then? I've been scarred by Shawn Michael's ass for years, and that grinding and the metaphors. Eurgh. I loved it.

SCX is right that the Attitude Era was all about attracting casuals. That's why we have Mike Tyson, that's why Austin was the biggest star in the industry at the time. I don't agree with Cena being the new Austin (Cena is the new Rock, CM Punk was the new Austin and they let him go) but it is a fact that in order for wrestling to boom again it needs more mainstream attention. The problem is, barely anyone is watching now and they don't want to turn off the fans and sponsors that they do have by trying to attract casual fans.

There are very few people in the business right now who are household names. Cena, yes. Orton, yes. Undertaker, yes. Roman Reigns, yes. Triple H, yes. Chris Jericho, yes. That's pretty much all that I can remember and one of them has just retired. Only one of them is likely to be there in 5 years time. Cena is barely there already. I know that when someone comes from Japan or NXT people immediately demand that they're a big deal but they're not. Nakamura was huge in Japan. Casual fans of the WWE don't know who he is. AJ Styles has a massive fan base but he is not a worldwide household name yet. He hadn't had the exposure until he joined the WWE.

Now there are plenty people with the potential to become household names. Charlotte, definitely. Rollins, yes, just as long as you get him in the ring with people who actually suit him like Balor, Styles and Nakamura. The Miz is damned close to breaking through that ceiling right now. Owens is heir apparent to Austin/Punk and by all rights should make it once they go full anti-hero with him. Ambrose? No. Not even close. Cesaro? No. Bayley? Not even close. The hardcore fans all give their passion to certain wrestlers and that thinks these wrestlers are then popular. Say their name to a non-wrestling fan and see what happens. They all know Randy Orton though, don't they? I bet they've heard the name Roman Reigns.

The product is no longer measured by TV ratings. It's measured by network subscriptions, YouTube hits and Twitter mentions. All said, I'm happier with the product now than I have been since the Attitude Era. Want to capture the national mood right now? Well you can look forward to the anti-immigrant era. The every Muslim is a terrorist era. The what about me era. But hey, what about Cesaro, am I right? What about my favourite? It doesn't matter who it is, why isn't my favourite succeeding? Why isn't WWE giving me exactly what I want?

We're anti everything nowadays. Shoot Bayley to the top and people will start to boo because she then becomes the system. Just chill out, relax, enjoy the show. It's not that bad.

 

[InSaNe]

I'm 38 and they could not duplicate the AE even if they tried. I was the target audience and the late 90's were the cultural zeitgeist of the time. We were kinda angry back then lol. The youth of the 90's had a different cultural PoV just like the hippies in the 60's. The 90's grunge for example burst onto the scene, killed off all the big hair 80's bands for the most part.

I understand what you mean. I'm 35, so you and I are in the same age group. However, we're in the 2000's, it's 2017 now.

If they tried the duplicate the AE you owuld have a case of "been there done that/seen that". ANd how do do you top it? Have Game of Thrones type sexposition, and kill a few wrestlers to top HiAC 1998?

It'd still work. nWo was still running well into the early 2000's. The problem with the angle wasn't the angle itself, it was WCW killing itself with all these stupid "me too" stables to compete against nWo. Had Eric Bishoff stayed at WCW and keep running the show, we'd still have been seeing nWo's dominance continue. It was fine. Hell, even Hogan's heel turn was growing on me then. It fit well with Hogan once you get used to it.

They rely on the legends because they have been crap at creating new stars of which the PG era has nothing to do with it. Hogan, Bret, Shawn, and the NWO for example were all PG. Going TV 14 won't fix shit booking or an out of touch Vince. No one gets over because of 50/50 booking, to obvious pushes, scripted promos, to much content (over exposure) and to many titles.

They rely on legends because they can't maintain the market anymore. Everyone left, dude. Austin? Retired. The Rock? He's in shape, but he's doing more films than wrestling. He only comes in when they need him. He wasn't at Wrestlemania 33. Did you notice that? Shawn Michaels? Retired. The Undertaker? Retired. Bret Hart? Retired. Ric Flair retired, but still works for WWE in some compacity. Hell, he was Charlotte's starting rocket.

The current state of WWE needs a kick in the ass like it did before Attitude Era debuted. TNA was supposed to be WWE's competition for a while now, but that didn't do anything for Vince because TNA can't grow outside of legends like Sting, Dudleys (Bubba Ray > Bully Ray), Kurt Angle (hell, according to Jarrett, it took a lot to get him signed to TNA, they even made a promo of it), and Hogan. Hogan's retired, but he keeps coming back and is slated for an appearance between now and Fall/Winter.

I'm sorry, Shawn Michaels and the NWO were PG? Have you ever watched them back then? I've been scarred by Shawn Michael's ass for years, and that grinding and the metaphors. Eurgh. I loved it.

I agree here. nWo was NOWHERE near PG. It was pretty violent. Hell, most of the hardcore matches in WCW was goddamn near vile. Like that one time when there was a free-for-all match that took place on a JUNKYARD, dude. That'll NEVER be on WWE TV.

I don't agree with Cena being the new Austin (Cena is the new Rock, CM Punk was the new Austin and they let him go) but it is a fact that in order for wrestling to boom again it needs more mainstream attention. The problem is, barely anyone is watching now and they don't want to turn off the fans and sponsors that they do have by trying to attract casual fans.

I meant backwards, Cena wasn't the new Austin. I said Cena was the Austin of his time. He appeared on just about any pop-culture show you can appear on. Most of the time it's for the sole purpose to get the WWE name out. And Cena was the face of the company in that capacity. He's the PR guy for WWE. The Rock does the same, but not on the same level that Cena did, or Austin did when he was on fire.

Anyhow, everything else - I agree with. And it's what I've been saying this whole thread... So thanks for that.

There are very few people in the business right now who are household names. Cena, yes. Orton, yes. Undertaker, yes. Roman Reigns, yes. Triple H, yes. Chris Jericho, yes. That's pretty much all that I can remember and one of them has just retired. Only one of them is likely to be there in 5 years time. Cena is barely there already. I know that when someone comes from Japan or NXT people immediately demand that they're a big deal but they're not. Nakamura was huge in Japan. Casual fans of the WWE don't know who he is. AJ Styles has a massive fan base but he is not a worldwide household name yet. He hadn't had the exposure until he joined the WWE.

Now there are plenty people with the potential to become household names. Charlotte, definitely. Rollins, yes, just as long as you get him in the ring with people who actually suit him like Balor, Styles and Nakamura. The Miz is damned close to breaking through that ceiling right now. Owens is heir apparent to Austin/Punk and by all rights should make it once they go full anti-hero with him. Ambrose? No. Not even close. Cesaro? No. Bayley? Not even close. The hardcore fans all give their passion to certain wrestlers and that thinks these wrestlers are then popular. Say their name to a non-wrestling fan and see what happens. They all know Randy Orton though, don't they? I bet they've heard the name Roman Reigns.

The product is no longer measured by TV ratings. It's measured by network subscriptions, YouTube hits and Twitter mentions. All said, I'm happier with the product now than I have been since the Attitude Era. Want to capture the national mood right now? Well you can look forward to the anti-immigrant era. The every Muslim is a terrorist era. The what about me era. But hey, what about Cesaro, am I right? What about my favourite? It doesn't matter who it is, why isn't my favourite succeeding? Why isn't WWE giving me exactly what I want?

We're anti everything nowadays. Shoot Bayley to the top and people will start to boo because she then becomes the system. Just chill out, relax, enjoy the show. It's not that bad.