WrestlingSmarks Ethics, Morals, and Philosophy Debate Club

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Chris

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Yeah I've never seen it that way in my head at all, if there wasn't a person on the other track would you even question not acting bc you wouldn't technically be killing anyone? Your choices to me are picking who dies, one choice just requires you to not press a button or pull a lever. I would see myself as killing people either way, it's a question of whether I kill 5 or 1
 
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Chris

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And now: the real trolley problem

FS0ODKiWYAI5mxF
 

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Shit, me and my friends made All Star a meme, so I’m pulling the lever :jade
 
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I would counter with : what about Good Samaritan law/act. By law, in a lot of places, you are protected by the law against lawsuit or legal ramifications for acting in good faith when attempting to save someone or someone's you perceive to be in peril. By those standards, you could argue that it would not be murder, or, to a lesser degree, not murder you are culpable for. Whether that would succeed? Up for debate, and likely dependent on the location, but a legal and moral argument could be made that that not only are you not breaking any legal or moral rules by pulling the lever, but you may argue you are bound to make that decision since you were given the opportunity. That would be where a person's definition of morality would come into play. I personally have no moral objections choosing in scenario a or c, but would struggle with b and d. Another person may be more rigid and go 1>5 , or the opposite. Ultimately however, I wouldn't call it murder unless you consider the people you are not saving is murder as well. The moment you are aware of a choice makes you part of the situation, regardless if you want to convince yourself inaction isn't making a choice. It still is.

At least, of course, that's how I see things.
 
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I'll start with the vanilla scenario:

It is easy to lean towards the option of pulling the lever to save the five by harming the one. That is very utilitarian, the greater good for the greater number of people. One dying is not as bad as five dying. I would be inclined to potentially make that choice, but something everyone in my class agreed with was either way it is a shit decision to make, and to show, I'll mention the counter argument.

The counter argument is heavily based on the idea of individual rights. An individual has a right to life. That is the most basic human right. By not stepping in, you are not choosing for them to die. In the end, they were going to die anyways and while it is noble to save a life, technically you don't have a legal responsibility to rush down and pull the lever. But by pulling the lever, you are actively making a choice to end someone's life. That one person at the end is only going to die if you make the decision. By interfering, you, by that logic, murdered someone. But by not pulling the lever, technically you are not the one who kills the five. It is whoever was driving the trolley or tied them to the tracks, whatever.


Then again, a counter to everything I just said there is that inaction can be an action in itself so either way, you may be "responsible."

So, it is a shit decision, and even if I pull the lever to save the five, it will not sit well with me.

The second, I'd be of course more tempted to save a loved one. Selfish or not, we all would be tempted to do so also. That death would hit harder on me.

Also the third scenario, I would be tempted to save the younger person honestly because of something I remember my grandfather mentioned before. I mentioned his health has been up and down, and even before my Grandmother got sick and passed, he was in and out of the hospital for a while and even once nearly died. He also had a DNR. One of the times I visited him with my brother he mentioned how at this point he considers himself to be in "bonus time" for his life. He got married, raised a family, saw his kids go on and some of them started families too, he saw my brother and I graduate from high school and go onto university for the first time in our family's history and my cousin recently started high school. He had a lifetime of experiences and those older people, even if they were healthy, at least have had their life.

Finally the fourth. I think I would be tempted to make the option to save myself. In the scenario, the government does not appear to be one which respects the rights of individuals. In a world where there is no justice, at times it just becomes a matter of survival, almost like a Hobbesian view of the world. Survive so that hopefully one day justice may return.
 

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BRING THIS BACK!
 

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I hate the trolley problem. If placed at the switch and fully knowing what's going on, not pulling it and letting the five die is an active choice. "Pulling is murder" people don't get it
 

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pretty much what I said tbh, but it's personally why I like the problem.
 

Grimoire Lenin

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Hey I remember this old thread, thought I'd go ahead and give it a whirl again, but with more of a philosophical twist to it, so I changed the name of it.

Kavka's Toxin Puzzle

An eccentric billionaire places before you a vial of toxin that, if you drink it, will make you painfully ill for a day, but will not threaten your life or have any lasting effects. The billionaire will pay you one million dollars tomorrow morning if, at midnight tonight, you intend to drink the toxin tomorrow afternoon. He emphasizes that you need not drink the toxin to receive the money; in fact, the money will already be in your bank account hours before the time for drinking it arrives, if you succeed. All you have to do is ... intend at midnight tonight to drink the stuff tomorrow afternoon. You are perfectly free to change your mind after receiving the money and not drink the toxin.

In essence, the experiment asks: "Can you intend to drink the poison while simultaneously intending to change your mind at a later time?"
 

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No, I don't think you can simultaneously intend both of those things (maybe a sociopath could?) but I do see plausible scenarios where humans can intend to drink it but then later actually change their mind so they did intend both things at the proper times, just not simultaneously
 
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Grimoire Lenin

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There's actually an argument against that line of thinking that essentially goes: If you intend to drink it and then afterwards change your mind, you never intended to drink it in the first place. By this logic, the only way to actually prove that you intend to drink the poison is to actually drink the poison.
 

Chris

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But I just don't think that's true at all lol believing that argument is believing there's no situations humans could erratically change their minds under stressful situations in a span of a day
 

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yeah I don't think intentions like opinions are absolute but I guess for some they are