The state of the (western) world

[Ozymandias]

So, I'm presuming the vast majority of us live in what is considered the 'Western' world (i.e. Europe, North America and - defying all geographical sense of the term - Australia and New Zealand). And it seems our area of the planet is going to fuck. Economic breakdown, recession after recession. In Europe Left and Right divisions becoming more and more apparent. The whole synergy of the post WWII era seems to be under threat.

What's your thoughts of what's happening in your local area and beyond? Let's bring us together before we are ripped apart.

 

[Rated R Superstar]

I hate it here sometimes. Things are so fucking expensive to the point that they want people to spend money, but how can we? If it wasn't so expensive to live, things would be better.

 

[Ozymandias]

Might not be a popular position, but I'm all for the Danish model, tax people to fuck. If you don't earn anything or don't earn much, you're not taxed that much. If you earn a fucking obscene amount of money then tax them lots. Pays for all the stuff we take for granted.

 

[Rated R Superstar]

Yeah, but what about the people who work hard for their wicked pay? Should they seriously be taxed a ton?

 

[Ozymandias]

Yup. If I earned that amount of money I wouldn't have a problem with paying a bit more.

 

[monkeystyle]

Yeah, but what about the people who work hard for their wicked pay? Should they seriously be taxed a ton?

No, they certainly should not. Should there be a sliding scale for taxes? Maybe. It would be difficult to properly enforce though as reported earnings do not necessarily reflect liquid cash.

There is this sub culture of people who resent the wealthy. Especially those who inherit their money from their parents. It's infuriating. Everybody gets dealt a different hand in life. If someone was fortunate enough to be born in to a wealthy family, then good for them. They don't owe anybody a damned thing.

However you have people like BigGreenApple who seem to think that just because they have a lot of money the deserve to be taxed harder than anyone else and try and justify it under the guise of fairness. Bullshit. Why should they pay more? Just because they made more than you? How the fuck is that fair?

In regards to what is happening in my local area? The same stuff that has been going on since the dawn of time. We aren't being ripped apart by any stretch of the imagination and the sky isn't falling despite what Chicken Little might say to you. If we have survived for thousands of years, we'll continue to survive through the same nonsense for a thousand more.

 

[monkeystyle]

Yup. If I earned that amount of money I wouldn't have a problem with paying a bit more.

Then this is your choice. If in such a situation you felt you weren't paying enough in taxes then you are free to donate as much to charity as you see fit. You do not have the right to impose you choices on others.

 

[Ozymandias]

First of all, charity is not a way of creating fairness. Charity is a result of our system not working. Charity is a way of helping those who have been rejected by our system. To suggest it is a responsible way of looking after a large section of our society is frightening.

I do not resent the wealthy, I have no problem with those who are born into affluence IF the appreciate their situation. One of my heroes is a guy called Tony Benn who came from an extremely privileged background but who could still appreciate that there was something wrong with the system.

Tax should be based on income. I believe that passionately, the poor have no way to avoid taxation. The rich have many, many ways of avoiding tax. A simple income tax would be fairer.

 

[Tapout]

I think people with money should be taxed. Like, seriously. If every person paid only 1 dollar extra every month for the entire year, in the United States alone that would increase our annual taxes to 1,800,000,000. And that number comes from if only HALF the US is actually working and giving a dollar every month. That is an INSANE number for only a dollar more a month. And seriously, if you're super rich, or hell, even if you're pretty poor, thats only 1 dollar a month. Who seriously is going to miss that? It equals out to 12 dollars a year. That's not even bad at all.

It's the basic High School party logic. "Hey, if everyone brings a dollar, we can get pizza!" It's not that hard of an idea. On top of what we're already taxed, we would be able to help our economy in a relatively short time.

 

[Ozymandias]

Agree completely with Tapout. I think some people are so fucking terrified of anything that may even seem slightly socialist that they turn away from stuff which is just fair. The Cold War is over, the Berlin War is down, there is no terrifying spectre of Communism. It's okay to buy into social-democrat ideals. Especially considering capitalism is such a clusterfuck at the moment.

Like I said earlier, the Scandinavian countries have it right at the moment.

 

[monkeystyle]

First of all, charity is not a way of creating fairness. Charity is a result of our system not working. Charity is a way of helping those who have been rejected by our system. To suggest it is a responsible way of looking after a large section of our society is frightening.

The system isn't meant to be your parents. It is not there to feed you or clothe you. It is there to ensure that that certain infrastructures continue to function as they should.

So yes, charities function exactly as they should.

I do not resent the wealthy, I have no problem with those who are born into affluence IF the appreciate their situation. One of my heroes is a guy called Tony Benn who came from an extremely privileged background but who could still appreciate that there was something wrong with the system.

Great. Not everybody wants to do that. If they choose to turn a blind eye and enjoy their ignorance and wealth then that is their choice. And while you don't have to like it, you do have to deal with it. Because you don't get to dictate how others should live their lives.

Tax should be based on income. I believe that passionately, the poor have no way to avoid taxation. The rich have many, many ways of avoiding tax. A simple income tax would be fairer.

No, that doesn't work. Maybe buddy makes $250,000 a year. But maybe he also takes care of one of his parents who have Alzheimer's. Or a sick wife or child that eats up a significant portion of his earnings.

So yes, this person makes a fair amount more than the average person but also has considerably greater expenses. You're telling me that this person's taxes should be raised even though most of his earned cash goes towards something else?

Nonsense. There are many circumstances under which a sliding scale for taxes does not work and unless you are advocating for thorough individual assessments (think of how much that would cost and how much time it would take up) then you can't throw down blanket statements like that.

I think people with money should be taxed. Like, seriously. If every person paid only 1 dollar extra every month for the entire year, in the United States alone that would increase our annual taxes to 1,800,000,000. And that number comes from if only HALF the US is actually working and giving a dollar every month. That is an INSANE number for only a dollar more a month. And seriously, if you're super rich, or hell, even if you're pretty poor, thats only 1 dollar a month. Who seriously is going to miss that? It equals out to 12 dollars a year. That's not even bad at all.

First of all, I don't think that the solution is anywhere near as simple as you think.

Second, I'll say it again. You do not have the right to dictate to anyone what they do with their money. It is theirs. Not yours.

 

[Tapout]

The system isn't meant to be your parents. It is not there to feed you or clothe you. It is there to ensure that that certain infrastructures continue to function as they should.

So yes, charities function exactly as they should.



Great. Not everybody wants to do that. If they choose to turn a blind eye and enjoy their ignorance and wealth then that is their choice. And while you don't have to like it, you do have to deal with it. Because you don't get to dictate how others should live their lives.



No, that doesn't work. Maybe buddy makes $250,000 a year. But maybe he also takes care of one of his parents who have Alzheimer's. Or a sick wife or child that eats up a significant portion of his earnings.

So yes, this person makes a fair amount more than the average person but also has considerably greater expenses. You're telling me that this person's taxes should be raised even though most of his earned cash goes towards something else?

Nonsense. There are many circumstances under which a sliding scale for taxes does not work and unless you are advocating for thorough individual assessments (think of how much that would cost and how much time it would take up) then you can't throw down blanket statements like that.




First of all, I don't think that the solution is anywhere near as simple as you think.

Second, I'll say it again. You do not have the right to dictate to anyone what they do with their money. It is theirs. Not yours.

Fine. Try having a country without taxes. See how long you live before people resort to anarchy.

 

[monkeystyle]

Fine. Try having a country without taxes. See how long you live before people resort to anarchy.

I never said anything about eliminating taxes. Would you care to try again or are you going to stand on that reductio ad absurdum?

 

[Tapout]

I never said anything about eliminating taxes. Would you care to try again or are you going to stand on that reductio ad absurdum?

I prefer not to argue with ignoramuses that don't accept other people's views because they're too ignorant to see any other ones but their own.

 

[Ozymandias]

The parents comparison is a strange one to make, I didn't say or suggest that, what I said is that society should run so that people do not fall into poverty. No one is asking for the state to feed and clothes us, but it should be there to support us when - for whatever reason - we are not able to do that anymore.

Not everyone wants to work, not everyone wants to pay their taxes. You okay with that? They choose ignorance and reliance and welfare, are you okay with that? Because you don't get to dictate how others should live their lives

Do you not think that people who are on the bottom rung of employment, or indeed, are unemployed, have the same external responsibilities? And they have no money to fall back on. They require the state, they cant afford to put more in, even though they work hard, so maybe your friend who's on 250k might be happy to pay a little more considering people are having the same problem as him who HAVE to rely on the state to help them out.

I don't dictate to anyone what they do with their money, I only ask they think what they would do with is.