The No Smark Zone 19: Suspending Disbelief

[monkeystyle]

But you know for a fact it's not like any other sport, its not even a sport at all. So why do you treat it as such?

Actually it is like many other sports. Its like dance, synchronized swimming, or any other sport that requires a duo or more, and a presentation.

Because that is the point of movies, books, and TV. They are supposed to emotionally draw you in. If it was all dry technique, no one would connect with it. If that was the case, no one would have liked Hulk Hogan. He connected emotionally with people. He drew people in by making them "believe in him".

Nah, I enjoy the story, but I'm a very dispassionate person. I enjoy it for what it is, a well told story (hopefully). I just don't become emotionally involved. That being said I don't invest my emotions in too many things as it is.

There is a difference between someone who criticizes and someone who does NOTHING BUT. Look on the internet, people go to house shows and do nothing but shit all over everything. Even a match with some undercard guys they like they go "well it should have been longer" and "these guys arent being pushed enough" ALONG WITH BITCHING ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE!! What the fuck is the point of that? If you truly want to change Vince's mind, turn off the god damn TV, dont buy anything he sells and he will get "well fuck they arent buying it, lets change the shit up." But they dont want to do that they just want something to complain about. (notice I didnt say YOU, I said THEM)

I noticed the difference, and I do see what you're saying here and I dig it. Its just that entirely too often the people who have legitimate criticisms of the show or whatever are lumped in with the rest of the twats who can never be pleased.

 

[Kaedon]

Actually it is like many other sports. Its like dance, synchronized swimming, or any other sport that requires a duo or more, and a presentation.

Yes but the GLARING way its not like any other sport is that ITS FAKE. It's an illusion. They are portraying fake violence and is therefore not real. Also, when wrestling is done right, it is interemotional. When you watch any other sport the crowd is completely meaningless in the outcome of the game. I mean yeah it might be a loud crowd but its just as loud on both sides. What happens when a batter hits a grand slam in baseball? The fans cheer. What happens when they want an opposing hitter to fuck up, they cheer and get loud. But in wrestling you as a fan you can determine what happens in the match. If you cheer in wrestling the babyface fights back, fights harder, gets out of that CHINLOCK, or whatever. And the heel gets pissed when the fans cheer. "Shut the heel up, I need it quiet because I'm trying to work". That kinda thing. But if you arent willing to invest that into a match, you are missing out on something that differentiates wrestling from any other sport.

 

[monkeystyle]

Yes but the GLARING way its not like any other sport is that ITS FAKE. It's an illusion. They are portraying fake violence and is therefore not real. Also, when wrestling is done right, it is interemotional. When you watch any other sport the crowd is completely meaningless in the outcome of the game. I mean yeah it might be a loud crowd but its just as loud on both sides. What happens when a batter hits a grand slam in baseball? The fans cheer. What happens when they want an opposing hitter to fuck up, they cheer and get loud. But in wrestling you as a fan you can determine what happens in the match. If you cheer in wrestling the babyface fights back, fights harder, gets out of that CHINLOCK, or whatever. And the heel gets pissed when the fans cheer. "Shut the heel up, I need it quiet because I'm trying to work". That kinda thing. But if you arent willing to invest that into a match, you are missing out on something that differentiates wrestling from any other sport.

So, who cares if its fake? The fact that the violence is an illusion is irrelevant to me that's not my main concern when I watch wrestling. Never has been. I appreciate the effort that goes in to making a good match that tells the right story in the ring. I don't need to get lost in it because I am not looking at it in the same manner that you do.

Also to say that I'm missing out on something is pure assumption on your part. You get your kicks your way, and I'll get mine my way.

Further, the fans make no difference to me when I watch. They're the icing on the cake when they're entertaining. Beyond that I don't care. I just want to see a hybrid display of athleticism, and story telling. The rest I couldn't care any less about.

 

[Kaedon]

So, who cares if its fake? The fact that the violence is an illusion is irrelevant to me that's not my main concern when I watch wrestling. Never has been. I appreciate the effort that goes in to making a good match that tells the right story in the ring. I don't need to get lost in it because I am not looking at it in the same manner that you do.

But that has nothing to do with the original purpose of wrestling. When fans watched Hulk Hogan did they give a rats ass about his "storytelling" abilities? No they just said "God I hope he beats the shit out of Roddy Piper because he's an annoying prick". It's over analyzing imo.

Also to say that I'm missing out on something is pure assumption on your part. You get your kicks your way, and I'll get mine my way.

Of course your missing out on something, and youre missing out on it because you don't see it from all perspectives, just yours.

Further, the fans make no difference to me when I watch. They're the icing on the cake when they're entertaining. Beyond that I don't care. I just want to see a hybrid display of athleticism, and story telling. The rest I couldn't care any less about.

The fans arent supposed to matter to YOU, they are supposed to matter to the match. In all of the best matches in wrestling history you have the wrestlers interacting with the crowd. It's like sex when it's done that way. When it's done the other way and you just set shit up and do it, its just masturbation.

 

[monkeystyle]

But that has nothing to do with the original purpose of wrestling. When fans watched Hulk Hogan did they give a rats ass about his "storytelling" abilities? No they just said "God I hope he beats the shit out of Roddy Piper because he's an annoying prick". It's over analyzing imo.

Please don't tell me you used the words "original purpose of wrestling" and "Hulk Hogan" in the same paragraph.

Come on. Lets go back to Gotch/Hackenschmidt. Nobody cared about story telling abilities, they cared about the atheleticism.

Of course your missing out on something, and youre missing out on it because you don't see it from all perspectives, just yours.

And I suppose the way that you view it covers all perspectives right? Riiight.

The fans arent supposed to matter to YOU, they are supposed to matter to the match. In all of the best matches in wrestling history you have the wrestlers interacting with the crowd. It's like sex when it's done that way. When it's done the other way and you just set shit up and do it, its just masturbation.

Terrible analogy.

K-man, in the end here, no matter how hard you argue your point, you aren't going to budge me. You can tell me I'm wrong all you like, but I don't care. I do what entertains me. Which is what we all should be doing, and not telling each other how to watch the show, or that because you don't do it my way you're missing out, because that's just ego driven bullshit.

 

[Kaedon]

Please don't tell me you used the words "original purpose of wrestling" and "Hulk Hogan" in the same paragraph.

Come on. Lets go back to Gotch/Hackenschmidt. Nobody cared about story telling abilities, they cared about the atheleticism.

I was talking about when Ed Lewis started to make wrestling a worked sport. The Purpose then was to draw the fans in emotionally.

And I suppose the way that you view it covers all perspectives right? Riiight.

I choose not to look at it from an analytical perspective, though it is hard to fight as one gets older. But I'd say in this instance I'm more well rounded because while I can look at "work rate" and whatever, you seem to not be able to emotionally get into it, and if you can you haven't for a loooooooooooong time.

Terrible analogy.

K-man, in the end here, no matter how hard you argue your point, you aren't going to budge me. You can tell me I'm wrong all you like, but I don't care. I do what entertains me. Which is what we all should be doing, and not telling each other how to watch the show, or that because you don't do it my way you're missing out, because that's just ego driven bullshit.

its a terrible analogy because you cant see it from the perspective of people who are emotionally invested (me) or the people who want you to get emotionally invested (most wrestlers). How is it a bad analogy. If you go out there and interact with the crowd and play to what they want, that is just like nailing a hot babe because its just not for your sake, its for hers. If you go out there and do 3 sets of 15phase high spots and the crowd completely shits on it, how is that NOT just like masturbation? You're just doing it for you and youre not giving a rats ass what the crowd thinks when in wrestling its one of the few things you should care about.

 

[monkeystyle]

I was talking about when Ed Lewis started to make wrestling a worked sport. The Purpose then was to draw the fans in emotionally.

You said wrestling's original purpose, and I firmly believe that I am true to wrestlings original purpose as it has been for thousands of years now.

I choose not to look at it from an analytical perspective, though it is hard to fight as one gets older. But I'd say in this instance I'm more well rounded because while I can look at "work rate" and whatever, you seem to not be able to emotionally get into it, and if you can you haven't for a loooooooooooong time.

Once again, you are making assumptions. Untrue assumptions at that. You can say that I am not getting the most out of it because I don't watch it your way, well I can say the exact same thing. It doesn't make me right.

its a terrible analogy because you cant see it from the perspective of people who are emotionally invested (me) or the people who want you to get emotionally invested (most wrestlers). How is it a bad analogy. If you go out there and interact with the crowd and play to what they want, that is just like nailing a hot babe because its just not for your sake, its for hers. If you go out there and do 3 sets of 15phase high spots and the crowd completely shits on it, how is that NOT just like masturbation? You're just doing it for you and youre not giving a rats ass what the crowd thinks when in wrestling its one of the few things you should care about.

I believe I've been saying the entire time that I want a good match that delivers on all the main points of wrestling. I believe in psychology as much as you do, but not because it gets the crowd involved, but because its logical and makes sense. So again, your point is moot.

Also, when you say getting the crowd to care about the match or whatever. I'm not a wrestler, and I never will be, you couldn't drag me kicking and screaming into a ring. I don't care about what they do to connect with the crowd. I don't watch wrestling for their enjoyment, I watch it to entertain me.

 

[Trips V.2]

Kaedon, you can't say he is wrong and not enjoying wrestling for it's true purpose. Wrestling has tons of ways you can watch it. You can either watch to be emotionally invested and/or watch it for the art of it. Either way it's okay, but you can't say he's wrong.

Notice how not once has MonkeyStyle said that you are wrong for watching it the way you do, he's only stated his opinions supporting his side. He's right for calling you ego driven because you've been telling him he's not watching it correctly. You don't determine how someone watches what they love, so I suggest you give it a rest before you come out of this looking like a foolish asshole.

 

[Kaedon]

You said wrestling's original purpose, and I firmly believe that I am true to wrestlings original purpose as it has been for thousands of years now.

For thousands of years before it became a worked sport. Athleticism went out the window when guys were taking falls and the best athletes werent champions anymore.

Once again, you are making assumptions. Untrue assumptions at that. You can say that I am not getting the most out of it because I don't watch it your way, well I can say the exact same thing. It doesn't make me right.

If I am wrong it is because you have given me wrong information. I am only going on what you have told me. "I keep an objective perspective" you all but said "I remain emotionally detached" from anything that is TV, Movies, and books. So what other inference could I draw other than a) he cant do it or b) he can but he chooses not to? And if I am so wrong please tell me the last movie, book, or TV show you got emotionally invested in?

I believe I've been saying the entire time that I want a good match that delivers on all the main points of wrestling. I believe in psychology as much as you do, but not because it gets the crowd involved, but because its logical and makes sense. So again, your point is moot.

Without a crowd, you can throw psychology out the window though. If there is no crowd to make it look real in front of, what's the point? It's a tree falling in the woods with no one around.

Also, when you say getting the crowd to care about the match or whatever. I'm not a wrestler, and I never will be, you couldn't drag me kicking and screaming into a ring. I don't care about what they do to connect with the crowd. I don't watch wrestling for their enjoyment, I watch it to entertain me.

But if you really know and believe psychology to be an interegal pat of the match, then you know that without the crowd, it's all moot. If there was no crowd chanting and pleading and screaming for Hogan to get up, why would it make sense for him to get up?

 

[monkeystyle]

For thousands of years before it became a worked sport. Athleticism went out the window when guys were taking falls and the best athletes werent champions anymore.

Nah, athleticism is still there, its just not appreciated by the common fan anymore. They want their entertainment and they want it asap. Screw the other stuff, just give it to me as quickly as possible.

If I am wrong it is because you have given me wrong information. I am only going on what you have told me. "I keep an objective perspective" you all but said "I remain emotionally detached" from anything that is TV, Movies, and books. So what other inference could I draw other than a) he cant do it or b) he can but he chooses not to? And if I am so wrong please tell me the last movie, book, or TV show you got emotionally invested in?

I don't get emotionally invested, butthat doesn't mean I can't enjoy a story. Lets take the last book I read. I read Pet Sematary. Now it was a great book and told a great story, but did I become scared while reading it? Or sad? No, I didn't, that doesn't mean I didn't understand what there characters were going through, I just didn't empathize with them I still loved the book because it was unique and told a brilliant story.

But if you really know and believe psychology to be an interegal pat of the match, then you know that without the crowd, it's all moot. If there was no crowd chanting and pleading and screaming for Hogan to get up, why would it make sense for him to get up?

Because he's telling a story in the ring through the use of psychology and part of that story means that he wants to win?

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Kaedon]

Nah, athleticism is still there, its just not appreciated by the common fan anymore. They want their entertainment and they want it asap. Screw the other stuff, just give it to me as quickly as possible.

Youre right but you cant deny that when Ed Lewis started losing for a paycheck that that didnt start the "decline" as some would call it. It's not a pure athletic contest and you cant treat it as such. Well you can but you'd be off base. That's like judging wine and rubbing alcohol based on taste. Sure they are both alcohol but one is not meant to be ingested (unless stupid)

I don't get emotionally invested, butthat doesn't mean I can't enjoy a story. Lets take the last book I read. I read Pet Sematary. Now it was a great book and told a great story, but did I become scared while reading it? Or sad? No, I didn't, that doesn't mean I didn't understand what there characters were going through, I just didn't empathize with them I still loved the book because it was unique and told a brilliant story.

I never said you can't enjoy the story, I said you can't fully enjoy it as you have blocked part of yourself off from it.

Because he's telling a story in the ring through the use of psychology and part of that story means that he wants to win?

Seems pretty simple to me.

Telling a story to who? An empty arena?

 

[monkeystyle]

Youre right but you cant deny that when Ed Lewis started losing for a paycheck that that didnt start the "decline" as some would call it. It's not a pure athletic contest and you cant treat it as such. Well you can but you'd be off base. That's like judging wine and rubbing alcohol based on taste. Sure they are both alcohol but one is not meant to be ingested (unless stupid)

It is if you're not watching it in terms of winners and losers and are watching it based on performance.

I never said you can't enjoy the story, I said you can't fully enjoy it as you have blocked part of yourself off from it.

No, I haven't, and once again to assume that you enjoy it more than I do because you watch it differently is just elitist bullshit.

Telling a story to who? An empty arena?

The people who are watching them on TV. You know, the same way that actors on movies and tv shows do, because they tell stories but don't need a live audience to do so.

 

[Kaedon]

It is if you're not watching it in terms of winners and losers and are watching it based on performance.

It is what? A contest?

No, I haven't, and once again to assume that you enjoy it more than I do because you watch it differently is just elitist bullshit.

You said you have. All youve been saying is how you maintain an objective perspective so either youve blocked it out or you've never had it to begin with. And its not "elitist" I'm not saying "I'm better than you" Im saying I enjoy it from both perspectives when you clearly only enjoy it from one.

The people who are watching them on TV. You know, the same way that actors on movies and tv shows do, because they tell stories but don't need a live audience to do so.

So you think wrestling would do just as well if every show was an empty arena show?

 

[monkeystyle]

It is what? A contest?

Its not a contest anymore which is why I watch it for the performance put in by the wrestlers themselves

You said you have. All youve been saying is how you maintain an objective perspective so either youve blocked it out or you've never had it to begin with. And its not "elitist" I'm not saying "I'm better than you" Im saying I enjoy it from both perspectives when you clearly only enjoy it from one.

Well I guess I've never had it to begin with. It doesn't matter to me though because I still enjoy uit.

So you think wrestling would do just as well if every show was an empty arena show?

Financially? Obviously not. In terms of entertainment value? Sure, I don't see why not.

 

[Kaedon]

Its not a contest anymore which is why I watch it for the performance put in by the wrestlers themselves

No no, you said "it is" and I didnt know what you meant by that.

Well I guess I've never had it to begin with. It doesn't matter to me though because I still enjoy it.

Once again, never said you cant enjoy it but you aren't enjoying it from a full perspective. Would you disagree?

Financially? Obviously not. In terms of entertainment value? Sure, I don't see why not.

Because the fans are part of the reason people get so involved. Not you, but a lot of other people. What is more dramatic. An empty arena with Hulk Hogan getting beat down and coming back or 40,000 people pleading for him to get up?