So, Given The Response To Both Batista & Orton Recently

[Fauche]

I don't watch the weekly shows much, so, ya know...

But I'm assuming dudes still cut promos trashing local sports teams and calling fans dumb to get heat (like Barrett does?) and some guys still cut promos saying they're going to try their best and never give up on the wwe universe to get cheers? So, there are still heels and faces / good guys and bad guys?

Except then you look at things like that Miz / Kofi feud where they were both douches but kinda still "faces", or the SHIELD / Wyatts match where neither of them were "faces", or how HHH and Orton are both "heels" but don't always get along and stuff. Then you have Cena who gets the split reactions since forever ago, Lesnar who gets love even though he's a bad guy, Batista who gets the hate even though he's a returning "legend" and super rad, and Cesaro who is part of a "heel" team but pretty much a "face" anyway. Seems to some degree that booking and also the live crowds cheering whoever they want these days (ya know, being such free spirits / annoying tools) have diminished the clarity and importance of clear cut faces and heels. Maybe? I dunno. Fans have selective memories - if a guy is boring or lame, he could be a clean cut babyface and still get hated on, while guys that cheated like Flair or Eddie could get love, so this isn't anything that new.

While guys acting more like straight up athletes and not being "good" or "bad" might be cool for a modern audience, I definitely prefer me a Matt Hardy / Edge or HBK / Vince type feud, where you got your bad guy pulling some Jerry Springer screw-overs on a good guy so then the good guys has to beat him up. Straightforward and white-trashy. I'd like to think the concept isn't that outdated. If you book a guy in such a way that everybody hates him, juxtaposed against a loveable underdog, seems it might be easier to sell that match then just having two guys who both just want to win a match?

 

[ThatGuyFromNukemHigh]

So who were the "faces" and who were the "heels" in the Shield/Wyatt war?

I have to agree with Deezy here, Trips said straight out that he was getting rid of the concept, and that the superstars are people, who do both good and bad things. Some may do more bad, or more good, but they are no longer defining it as Face/Heel.

This concept will test the writers and bookers, but it does lead to many more variants on match archetypes.

 

[Keith]

So who were the "faces" and who were the "heels" in the Shield/Wyatt war?

I have to agree with Deezy here, Trips said straight out that he was getting rid of the concept, and that the superstars are people, who do both good and bad things. Some may do more bad, or more good, but they are no longer defining it as Face/Heel.

This concept will test the writers and bookers, but it does lead to many more variants on match archetypes.

Okay, so maybe its becoming more of a factor again under Triple H (see what a mark I am!) but him assuming that creative role is a recent thing not like those ideas have been set in stone for awhile.

Also of course there examples where the lines are blurred, but I still think that more often than not feuds are booked with a distinct line between good and bad.

 

[Deezy]

Still describe things as "groovy" too? Still think bad guys have to wear black hats?

Bad guys come out of one entrance way and the good guy come the other side? WWE is going old school where they are athletes competing for titles. The days of the garbage men facing the rich guy are dead and gone. Someone can do terrible things to get ahead, just like anyone on a tv show. It's a television show, stop trying to keep it boxed up.

 

[ThatGuyFromNukemHigh]

Trips said years ago that he was working on bringing in more teams to revitalize the tag team division, and that he was going to focus more on developmental (NXT), both of which have taken some time to get fully going, but are going strong. Also talked about mending bridges, Samartino, and Warrior both lend to that statement as well.

I will always take the word of the son-in-law, over some wannabe insider.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

So who were the "faces" and who were the "heels" in the Shield/Wyatt war?

You're reaching... Manute Bol style...

Nobody said EVERY match or every feud needs a face vs. heel. You can have face vs. face or heel vs. heel. You can have tweener vs. face/heel/tweener. Wyatt's vs. Shield was being built from the moments the Wyatt Family vignette's started airing... fans wanted it... WWE HAD to deliver at some point... it was given to the fans SO THE COMPANY could play the face and give the audience what they wanted before they dismantle The Shield and move on.

I'm assuming you were aware of that and just made that argument to be a trolling dick, but for the sake of some young kid who doesn't realize this and saw that in a search engine, I had to answer you.

 

[Kahuna]

WWE really has no choice now. They need to add someone to the match otherwise its just going to be even more of a fuck up. I didn't think it was possible. Bryan or Punk will be added in. If not WWE really is off their rocker

 

[Deezy]

You're reaching... Manute Bol style...

Nobody said EVERY match or every feud needs a face vs. heel. You can have face vs. face or heel vs. heel. You can have tweener vs. face/heel/tweener. Wyatt's vs. Shield was being built from the moments the Wyatt Family vignette's started airing... fans wanted it... WWE HAD to deliver at some point... it was given to the fans SO THE COMPANY could play the face and give the audience what they wanted before they dismantle The Shield and move on.

I'm assuming you were aware of that and just made that argument to be a trolling dick, but for the sake of some young kid who doesn't realize this and saw that in a search engine, I had to answer you.

He gave you an actual example and you don't have nothing to bring but "you're reaching" and "you trolling" Fucking brilliant!!! Heel faction supposedly huh? And yet fans were intrigued enough by both groups it just further proved the direction the company is going with their characters. It's not black and white no more, and tweeners are 11 year old bitches who listen to Justin Bieber.

 

[Keith]

He gave you an actual example and you don't have nothing to bring but "you're reaching" and "you trolling" Fucking brilliant!!! Heel faction supposedly huh? And yet fans were intrigued enough by both groups it just further proved the direction the company is going with their characters. It's not black and white no more, and tweeners are 11 year old bitches who listen to Justin Bieber.

Don't agree with Flywalker than he was trolling, but the Shield/Wyatt point has already been answered. One example does not prove the rule.

To go back to your point before, just because heels and faces are not defined in such stereotypical ways as in the 80's it doesn't mean that they no longer exist. Change how they are presented sure, wrestling has to involve and has, but a large part of how a feud is sold is heel vs. face. Don't forget they went the anti-heel or tweener route during the attitude era and then went back to heel and babyfaces. Who says that the same wouldn't happen again? You can still have complex heels without having to go the anti-heel route.

Also, wouldn't you say Alberto Del Rio was very much a old school heel in the Ted Dibiase sense?

 

[Luke Flywalker]

He gave you an actual example and you don't have nothing to bring but "you're reaching" and "you trolling" Fucking brilliant!!! Heel faction supposedly huh? And yet fans were intrigued enough by both groups it just further proved the direction the company is going with their characters. It's not black and white no more, and tweeners are 11 year old bitches who listen to Justin Bieber.

You saw the first and last section of my post... was the middle section not there for you where I answered his question? Nope... nope... it's RIGHT THERE in your post where you quoted me. Good job there, bud. Good going. (<--- WHOA BLURRING THE LINES OF FACE/HEEL!!!!)

It did not "prove the direction (no more heels/faces) the company is going" ... NAH-AHH! NOT BY A LONG SHOT!

The Wyatt Family, as they did at the Rumble, cost Cena his shot at the WWE WHC (heel). They came out on RAW and jumped the REAL 'FACE' of the WWE (a heel tactic) in order for Bray to get a match at Mania. He could have just asked (face) but he decided to attack (heel) WITH his 'Family' (major heel) in order to get a match between good/face (Cena) and evil/heel (Bray).

It's no different than nWo jumping Savage. It's no different than DX going after The Hart Foundation in order to set up Shawn vs. Austin. It's no different than Nexus taking out everyone to set up Wade vs. Cena. It's no different than New Nexus attacking Randy and then being dismantled to set up Punk vs. Orton.

 

[Chris]

I'm pretty sure other than the jobbers that I never see, I could name the entire roster and say whether they're a face or a heel and the only people that I couldn't would be Shield and Wyatts because they are a special case. Batista would have been grouped with that too if it weren't for last week when they made him a full heel. Just because the terms are outdated doesn't mean the concepts don't still apply.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

The Wyatt's are heel. Only time they aren't is when they are facing The Shield or going after Cena... in large part because Bray Wyatt the character actually does have some kind of cult-leader draw to him that can't be denied by fans.

In The Shield, Ambrose is a heel... Reigns and Rollins have already transitioned into being faces.

Batista was a face... but the crowd doesn't like to support him... he's a heel.

 

[Chris]

The Wyatt's are heel. Only time they aren't is when they are facing The Shield or going after Cena... in large part because Bray Wyatt the character actually does have some kind of cult-leader draw to him that can't be denied by fans.

In The Shield, Ambrose is a heel... Reigns and Rollins have already transitioned into being faces.

Batista was a face... but the crowd doesn't like to support him... he's a heel.

I disagree with Batista. A guy can be a face even if the crowd doesn't like them. They're just a bad face, like Rock before he joined The Nation.

 

[Deezy]

Heels/Faces would still apply if everyone wasn't acting like "I like so and so because I like them" "not because some booker tells me to like them". I don't get it, the company is giving you that option, but now people cling to old outdated concepts because? Dexter heel? Nucky Thompson heel? Walter White heel? It's a TV show product, get that memphis shit out of here. It don't belong anymore.

Oh and Wyatts are heels cuz of Cena? Because people just can't beef anymore? It's a TV Product, not rasslin' anymore. They are telling weekly episodic stories and have been for decades. Step into a new world, where it's not black and white, John Wayne isn't riding a horse to save the damsel in distress. Bout time you realize this thing called a third dimension has entered professional wrestling and why there is this thing called a creative team and not bookers jotting some shit down for 3 weeks of tapings and the big show at the local arena.

 

[ThatGuyFromNukemHigh]

The Wyatts/Shield match is the best available example, since its the undercard match everyone praised. Your point about fans wanting to see Heel/Heel matches actually works against you, the fans want blurred lines, the fans just want to see badasses fight, the fans stopped caring about goody two shoes always rising to the challenge, and just wanted to see those 6 men beat the living hell out of one another.

Did the Tag division get resurrected in a day? a week? a couple months? or did it take nearly 2 years of tedious work to elevate that division again? NXT has been well over a year, and last Thursday was the launching point of getting it viewed by more of the people watching Raw & Smackdown. Are there going to be remnants of the Face/Heel during this transition? of course, and even after you can still say "this guy is showing more Face tendencies", or "that guy is using a lot of Heel tactics", but it does not change the fact that in WWE, Sports Entertainers on screen characters are going to be more human, and less like comic book characters. The days of Heroes, Villains, and Anti-Heroes has gone the way of the dodo in the Universe.