Official Raw discussion thread

[AF.]

Well that was an entertaining match, but fuck me, Cena -.-"

 

[Crippler]

Cena had to put the cape on his back tonight

 

[SAL]

look at all the kids in the crowd go crazy we cena wins

I know, right? But, like, why? What's the victory worth when he never fucking loses? At least they gave Austin some vulnerability. They gave him powerful heels to face, and they had McMahon as an enemy. Cena doesn't have any enemies worth a shit, with the exception of Punk, who they promptly turned face.

 

[Crippler]

ADR half sold the AA

 

[PHX]

Was hoping for a better ending to the show but that was a really good match. Swagger ended up looking good in that match.

 

[AF.]

What was the point in making Swagger look so good if he was only going to tap to Cena at the end anyway? LolWWE booking.

 

[Crippler]

Really enjoyed Raw

 

[SAIYANS]

I know, right? But, like, why? What's the victory worth when he never fucking loses? At least they gave Austin some vulnerability. They gave him powerful heels to face, and they had McMahon as an enemy. Cena doesn't have any enemies worth a shit, with the exception of Punk, who they promptly turned face.

What fucking vulnerability did face Austin have? He bitched Rock. He did it to the hottest heel that they had in HHH, who only came out on top by what the announcers referred to as a fluke when he fell on him in 3 stages of hell. He bitched Taker in his different variations. He would have bitched The Big Red Machine Kane if not for the fact the finish was screwed up. HBK took it from him, Foley did as well, and he belittled the fuck out of Jericho when he was undisputed champ heading into No Way Out where the nWo struggled to take him down 3 to 1. Don't even get me started about Jim kicking Bookers ass all over a Lafayette supermarket for the hell of it. Austin was the most protected guy the company had even over Hogan because not even Hulk could single handedly kick two rosters ass like they let him do in 2001 on Raw before Invasion with nothing besides a pool cue.

Cena really has no high level enemies because no one left from his generation or the currect truly compares to him and what he has done. Orton had the resume but history shows people don't go out their way to watch him on top. There was Edge who he had many epic wars with and made his and mitbs name at his expense. Then you had Dave who really is the one guy he will be intertwined in history much like you hear Austin/Rock or Flair/Hogan. He and Jeff never faced off when they were both huge. There just are few who stack up from his era and he really hasn't had the luxury of a bunch of matches with people from the past generation either outside of HBK since his interaction with HHH and Taker has been kept at ver limited level so the company could theoretically milk them when they needed a buy and ratings spike.

 

[Kiffy Lube]

It felt like a basic formula Raw with no real intrigue. I was hoping for more out of pretty much everything. I did enjoy the main event, though.

 

[SAIYANS]

^ it was a basically holiday show to me. They didn't go all out because they knew less people watch on these days historically.

 

[PHX]

What fucking vulnerability did face Austin have? He bitched Rock. He did it to the hottest heel that they had in HHH, who only came out on top by what the announcers referred to as a fluke when he fell on him in 3 stages of hell. He bitched Taker in his different variations. He would have bitched The Big Red Machine Kane if not for the fact the finish was screwed up. HBK took it from him, Foley did as well, and he belittled the fuck out of Jericho when he was undisputed champ heading into No Way Out where the nWo struggled to take him down 3 to 1. Don't even get me started about Jim kicking Bookers ass all over a Lafayette supermarket for the hell of it. Austin was the most protected guy the company had even over Hogan because not even Hulk could single handedly kick two rosters ass like they let him do in 2001 on Raw before Invasion with nothing besides a pool cue.

Cena really has no high level enemies because no one left from his generation or the currect truly compares to him and what he has done. Orton had the resume but history shows people don't go out their way to watch him on top. There was Edge who he had many epic wars with and made his and mitbs name at his expense. Then you had Dave who really is the one guy he will be intertwined in history much like you hear Austin/Rock or Flair/Hogan. He and Jeff never faced off when they were both huge. There just are few who stack up from his era and he really hasn't had the luxury of a bunch of matches with people from the past generation either outside of HBK since his interaction with HHH and Taker has been kept at ver limited level so the company could theoretically milk them when they needed a buy and ratings spike.

I think that is the point that WWE needs to get better at building heels long term rather than just building them up and feeding them to faces too soon. Ultimately the heel is gonna be brought down by the face but there is too many instances where the rug got pulled from under these heels and stopped them from being estblished.

 

[SAL]

Yep. Chicken vs. egg, PSYCH. Nobody on Cena's level? I thought it was booking 101: make the heel look strong, so when the face beats him, the face looks like god. No heel looks strong anymore. They get an advantage over Cena by ganging up on him or attacking him from behind. Then he's "hurt." The question isn't "can Cena beat THAT guy?" It's "can Cena overcome the disadvantage?" And he does it. Over and over again. I can't even see how Cena winning a match like he did tonight can be fun for anybody.

Austin faced heels who were already built up as awesome, credible threats: Undertaker, Kane, Foley, Triple H (who he didn't "bitch out" at all, that's ridiculous, they actually made a point of having HHH go even with Austin to give Austin a reason to turn heel). And Austin's "prime," his era as a face champion, was March 1998 to November 1999. THAT WAS IT. Okay, you can milk Austin as a world beater for 18 months, that's not the end of the world. But Cena's been playing this game since March 2005. Oy.

 

[SAIYANS]

I get what you are saying but you don't out anyone over Cen a just to go over them or establish them. You do that with the guys like Orton who aren't your top draw. If you constantly put a guy over him or make them look better, when the time comes for the right guy to go over (Punk) it means less just like a win ofer the likes of Jericho puts guys like Kofi no further ahead than they already were before their matchup. Vince knows that.

ADR, Dolph, Wade and those guys will never just be put over him regardless of how much some might feel it won't hurt him because it hurts the company. It is the same reason wins over Austin are rare and why HHH would go on those long streaks only to put over the exact right guy in WM matches. You don't waste losses on his record for Tom, dick, and Harry. You make every L mean something and they alwaysvhave

- RVD at ONS
- Edge
- Batista at SummerSlam
- HBK in England
- HHH to tie him head to head
- Miz at WM
- CM Punk

Every loss Cena has took has been major because the level he is on is different from the level that the rest of the roster is on. In turn the payoff behind them have all been major or were intended to be major before they got derailed.

Edge and Punk were established at a level that they had never been before, Dave became a heel, ECW was relaunched, Rocks return was set, and HBK by his own admission was tapped for one more run before he said no.

 

[SAL]

I'm not saying put all of them over. I'm saying put ONE of them over. CM Punk was one, but he gathered so much momentum in so little time that it was a no-brainer to run with that angle. But all I've seen is Cena beating people for a long time. Cena's vulnerable when Wade Barrett cheats his way into becoming Cena's master or Orton kicks his dad or Edge cashes in on him. But a guy like ADR, they've been pushing him like god, and still everybody and their dog knows Cena won't tap out to ADR at the PPV. It ends one of two ways:

1) Cena wins
2) ADR retains via interference, DQ, whatever. Go to 1.

It's like a Choose Your Own Adventure story that ends on the same page no matter what. BLOW IT UP ALREADY. Make Cena vulnerable again, for the sake of your product.

 

[BreakTheWalls]

Oh hey.

So, this whole Triple H/CM Punk/Kevin Nash/John Laurinaitis thing isn't all that interesting, imo. The silver lining is Punk getting so much mic time, but they were already giving him that before this angle started. The "outspoken" side of Punk that they've been highlighting has been phenomenal. The fact that they've been letting him rip on Nash so hard is amazing.