Christmas Debate

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Kaedon

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At Capitol, atheist placard joins Nativity, holiday treeCURT WOODWARD; The Associated Press Published: December 2nd, 2008 01:02 AM | Updated: December 2nd, 2008 11:52 AMAn atheist group has unveiled an anti-religion placard in the state Capitol, joining a Christian Nativity scene and “holiday tree†on display during December.
The atheists’ sign was installed Monday by Washington members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national group based in Madison, Wis.

With a nod to the winter solstice – the year’s shortest day, occurring in late December – the placard reads, in part, “There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.â€

The foundation’s co-president, Dan Barker, said it was important for atheists to offer their viewpoint alongside the overtly religious Nativity scene and Christmas-style holiday tree.

“Our members want equal time,†Barker said. “Not to muscle, not to coerce, but just to have a place at the table.â€

The three displays, all privately sponsored, were granted permits from state groundskeepers to be placed in the Capitol’s grand marble hallways.

The 25-foot noble spruce, officially called the “Capitol Holiday Kids Tree,†is sponsored by the Association of Washington Business and tied to a charity drive for needy families. It’s been a Capitol fixture for nearly 20 years.

Although nominally secular, the tree is clearly recognizable as a sign of Christmas: It’s strung with lights, topped by a large golden star and usually surrounded by faux wrapped presents.

In 2006, a Jewish group sponsored a Capitol menorah, the candelabrum that marks Hanukkah. That prompted local real estate agent Ron Wesselius to propose a Capitol Nativity scene depicting the birth of Christ.

The request was turned down, with state lawyers saying they didn’t have enough time to wade through issues of government religious endorsement. Wesselius sued; his Nativity scene was installed in 2007 and again this year. No menorah is on display this year.

On Monday, the Nativity scene and the atheist sign were installed alongside each other in a hallway between the state Senate and House chambers, separated by a large bust of the state’s namesake, George Washington.

Asked whether he was bothered by the atheist display next to his Nativity scene, Wesselius said, “I think the Nativity scene will speak for itself.â€

But he added, “I appreciate freedom of speech and freedom of access. That’s why they’re in there, and hey – you know, that’s great.â€

For now, the atheist sign is a stand-in. The metal plaque meant for display was delayed by a shipping error, Barker said.

It will be two-sided, with a lengthy message on the main side, and “Keep State/Church Separate†on the back. Barker said that step is necessary because critics have sometimes spun around the group’s other statehouse display, in Wisconsin, in hopes of hiding its message.


Look, I dont care how atheist you are, you do not have the right to come on to PUBLIC property and shit all over someone elses belief system. And contrary to what these asshats believe, a nativity scene and a christmas tree is NOT saying "Believe in God or burn in hell". Its a symbol of the hoilday season. Thats why there are manoras allowed and Qwanza thingys are allowed as well. If you, as an atheist want to put up a big black square that signifies what you think will be after death, fucking great. If you want throw up a picture of Charles Darwin saying "Have a good winter" even better. But to say "Religion is wrong and youre an idiot if you believe" is a completely different story.
 

Moonlight Drive

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What the fuck.

That's just disrespectful. Although to many people Christmas is just presents, to Christians its probably there most important celebration.

Just think about it this way everyone; If a Christian went into somewhere there was say a Muslim display and placed a crucifix saying 'Jesus is the answer' or something of the like, there would be public uproar. It's just plain disrespectful.
 

comicgeekelly

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I'm fine with freedom of speech, but I just hate it how a lot of atheists (not all) act like total dicks around Christmas time.
 

Evil Austin

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Yeh, I agree that is just something you don't do. Wheather you like the opposite religeon or not you don't need to disrespect it.
 

MikeRaw

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I agree.
The people who do that, are the same people who complain that religion is being forced down their throats, yet they're trying to force their non religiousness down other peoples throats.
it's stupid.
Let people enjoy what they want.
 

LadyHotrod

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Look, I dont care how atheist you are, you do not have the right to come on to PUBLIC property and shit all over someone elses belief system. And contrary to what these asshats believe, a nativity scene and a christmas tree is NOT saying "Believe in God or burn in hell". Its a symbol of the hoilday season. Thats why there are manoras allowed and Qwanza thingys are allowed as well. If you, as an atheist want to put up a big black square that signifies what you think will be after death, fucking great. If you want throw up a picture of Charles Darwin saying "Have a good winter" even better. But to say "Religion is wrong and youre an idiot if you believe" is a completely different story.



Religious people are FAR worse. Athiests do ONE thing and it offends people? Wow.

How many Athiests go outside and protest against gay marriage? Pretty sure not too many. How many Athiests whined about a church apprearing in a video game (the game escapes me right now)? Not too many.


I can't believe the amount of shit disturbing religious people do in this world yet when an Athiest does one thing, everyone has a shit fit.

I'm not saying I agree with what they did but it bothers me how anal people are in this world. Oh, yes, let's all sit around and let religious people protest the marriage of two people who are the same gender but as soon as an Athiest does something, OMG THEY R BADDDD.
 

Kizza

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I hate people/groups who are like this. Trying to shove their bloody beliefs down other people's throat. This isn't directed at atheists or any other religious group, I just hate it how this kinda crap happens. I mean, let people decide their own religion, not try to win them over with this kinda bullshit.
 

MikeRaw

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^In this particular thread, blame the atheists. They were being assholes (whoever did this) and trying to shove their belief of non religiousness onto other people.
However, other times, religious people do the same thing, and try to shove their religiousness at people.

Neither is right. In this case, the athiest is wrong, and fucked up for that matter. Let people enjoy christmas, and the holidays. But over time, both "groups" have had their fair share of people that try to shove their beliefs at other people.

And just so you know where I'm coming from, I've never gone to church, or done anything religious, and I don't even follow it, but I wouldn't want to subscribe myself with atheists either.
But I'm neutral, so whatever. All I know is I'm pumped for Christmas :xmas:
 

Kaedon

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Religious people are FAR worse. Athiests do ONE thing and it offends people? Wow.

How many Athiests go outside and protest against gay marriage? Pretty sure not too many. How many Athiests whined about a church apprearing in a video game (the game escapes me right now)? Not too many.

Yeah athiests (read usually liberals) never protest anything.

The War in Iraq
NAFTA
President Bush

I can't believe the amount of shit disturbing religious people do in this world yet when an Athiest does one thing, everyone has a shit fit.

So I guess two wrongs make a right....


I'm not saying I agree with what they did but it bothers me how anal people are in this world. Oh, yes, let's all sit around and let religious people protest the marriage of two people who are the same gender but as soon as an Athiest does something, OMG THEY R BADDDD.

The point of this is, they arent JUST expressing their belief, they are SHITTING all over what others believe. A manger scene doesnt say explicitly "believe in God or you will burn in hell because you are a heathen". If it said THAT, then you'd be 100% right on for saying "oh yeah, well fuck you you moron who believes in an inviisble man in the sky" but thats not what this is about. This is about Christmas. And in this country, you are allowed to put up things in the public square, sponsored by the state/gov, as long as its not hateful and in keeping up with the decorum and spirit of the celebration. If an athiest wanted to put up a picture of Charles Darwin, fucking great. But thats not what this was, this was against the decorum of the season/holiday. If a KKK member wanted to put up a sign that says "fuck ♂♂♂♂♂♂s" next to MKL's picture on MLK Day would that be ok? No, and the state CANT sponsor it because its hate speech.
 

Headfirst For Hardcore

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I have this happen lots where I'm from. I really don't want to stereotype, but there's so many atheists where I'm from that are so pompous and arrogant, it's disgusting. I'm fine if you just let things happen, but if someone wants to think they're a smart ass and talk shit, that's too much.

but now, Christmas is so misconstrued and capitalized, it doesn't even matter if you're Christian or not. that's ridiculous.
 

Quintastic One

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The nativity scene expresses a belief in the birth of Christ, sure you can dig into that with religious connotations and claims its overtly imposing a religious belief, but in reality, there's nothing overt about it. Its just a scene.

The christmas tree is a symbol of Christmas itself, the joy, the cheer, the happiness of being with family and like Thanksgiving, appreciating and being thankful for what you have and for the joy of giving more than receiving. Its not even so much a religious symbol as a beacon of hope and inspiration for people all over.

The monument being placed by the atheists, isnt a symbol of inspiration or hope. Its not an introverted display or subject to connotations or suspect of criticism. Its a blunt, in your face "Fuck you" to the Holiday season. Seriously now? Put up a symbol for Quanza or of Muslim faith. Put up a Buddha memorial to remind people to be kind to others for the sake of karma. Put up a picture of Thor crushing another mans skull to remind people that Norse is not dead. But seriously, overtly disrespecting and attacking another religious belief?

These "religious" celebratory monuments have no such message of intolerance or hate. Rather, it reminds us to love one another in acceptance. This atheist thing may be a good example of great freedom of speech, but its insulting. Its directly spitting on the holidays and leaves the connotation that you should be miserable and unhappy 365 days a year because your religion is false and your holiday is commercialized and exploitive.

Not everybody sees things that way, and I much rather support symbols of good will and friendship, rather than symbols of hate and intolerence for others wishes to enjoy one day a fucking year where they can forget about all the pain in the world and just be happy its freakin Christmas.

Jeez atheists piss me off. Not saying they don't have a right to put up the thing, I would fight for their right to put up whatever the hell they wanted. Same as any other belief group, but damn. Lighten up.
 

monkeystyle

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Religious people are FAR worse. Athiests do ONE thing and it offends people? Wow.

How many Athiests go outside and protest against gay marriage? Pretty sure not too many. How many Athiests whined about a church apprearing in a video game (the game escapes me right now)? Not too many.


I can't believe the amount of shit disturbing religious people do in this world yet when an Athiest does one thing, everyone has a shit fit.

I'm not saying I agree with what they did but it bothers me how anal people are in this world. Oh, yes, let's all sit around and let religious people protest the marriage of two people who are the same gender but as soon as an Athiest does something, OMG THEY R BADDDD.

Speaking as a quasi-athiest, it doesn't matter. Take the high road.
 

Kizza

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Christmas barely has a spiritual meaning anymore. just a way for shops to sell more products and make more money.
 

LadyHotrod

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Yeah athiests (read usually liberals) never protest anything.
The War in Iraq
NAFTA
President Bush


Is this topic NOT about religion? What does any of that have to do with anything? We're talking about religion. That is why I named religious things.


The point of this is, they arent JUST expressing their belief, they are SHITTING all over what others believe. A manger scene doesnt say explicitly "believe in God or you will burn in hell because you are a heathen". If it said THAT, then you'd be 100% right on for saying "oh yeah, well fuck you you moron who believes in an inviisble man in the sky" but thats not what this is about. This is about Christmas. And in this country, you are allowed to put up things in the public square, sponsored by the state/gov, as long as its not hateful and in keeping up with the decorum and spirit of the celebration. If an athiest wanted to put up a picture of Charles Darwin, fucking great. But thats not what this was, this was against the decorum of the season/holiday. If a KKK member wanted to put up a sign that says "fuck ♂♂♂♂♂♂s" next to MKL's picture on MLK Day would that be ok? No, and the state CANT sponsor it because its hate speech.

Oh, wow! Do you take chill pills before you read a response? This is a discussion, not OMG U BITCH GO 2 HELL!!! I never said anything about me being all for what happened. I am Athiest but I respect what other people do and yes, I do celebrate Christmas and decorate my home, though it's simply for the holiday season, not for religious reasons.

Those who believe in God are far more disrespectful than Athiests. Athiests don't knock on your door and try to force you into believing in God. I get dirty looks from people all the time when I say I am Athiest. I never disrespect any other religion because most members of my family ARE religious (which I've mentioned many times before yet you immediately went straight ahead and tried to make it seem like I am just some anal Athiest who pisses all over people who believe in God).

The manger is a symbol of religion. I see no difference in an Athiest protesting something that stands for what they don't believe in than a religious person protesting a gay marriage because it's against religion.

That is purely my opinion.