Cena's Return?

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SAIYANS

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Batista got hurt his first reign, worked hurt because Eddie died, but he drew and still holds the record for spike tv with his contract signing. He was made when he won that at wm21, believable and accepted from then on and you know it dale. He wasn't still a project who they were trying to make at 2, 3, 4, etc.
 

Chris

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I know the circumstances are such that SAIYANS will completely disagree with me here, but Del Rio did defeat both Cena (a healthy one) and Punk in a Hell in a Cell match two years ago.
 

SAIYANS

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and i swear king said in hiac, but I shouldn't listen to king

edit forgot about that triple threat good catch Chris

It's really not hard to sell at all it's already set up to be sold. They have the perfect built up excuse against the perfect opponent to exploit it doesn't get any easier than that. He doesn't need a gimmick to exploit it. Gives Del Rio tons of confidence and put doubt in Cena's head that he came back too soon.
New gimmick for Mexican JBL? He makes people doubt their abilities (RVD and then Cena)
 
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Batista got hurt his first reign, worked hurt because Eddie died, but he drew and still holds the record for spike tv with his contract signing. He was made when he won that at wm21, believable and accepted from then on and you know it dale. He wasn't still a project who they were trying to make at 2, 3, 4, etc.
What are you even talking about, where did I say he wasn't?

If you actually looked into my post instead of hitting the reply button so fast so you can throw out all your little buzzwords then you would see that I was indicating that expecting guys these days who get no build whatsoever to their first title reigns and come off months of horrible booking while holding the MITB briefcase to be even remotely comparable to Batista who's build from Evolution all the way through his reign was always going to give him a chance to succeed.

Comparing the two is like saying John Cena sucks and isn't a draw as WWE champion because the ratings are far inferior to when Austin/Rock were champion in the Attitude Era.
 
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PHX

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New gimmick for Mexican JBL? He makes people doubt their abilities (RVD and then Cena)
Pretty much what I had in mind cause he badly needs something having no Ricardo to lean on. Can go back to Dolph to exploiting his concussion and how Dolph hasn't been same since. Pretty much make him the master of exploiting weaknesses.
 

Deezy

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Thats a funny post for two reasons, one because of the Jack Black gag.

Two because how you basically paid no attention to the the reasoned arguments which we all made. Still just carry on pretending that we said things we didn't and that the only answer to everything in wrestling for the rest of time is push Cena, push Cena, and then push him some more.

What are these well reasoned arguments? All I see are "stfu PSYCH, tl'dr" directed at one person for 3 pages.

Show me one person who the WWE can effectively push who can draw money, and I'll agree. Until then.......Cena's still THE GUY. And will continue to be until someone actually moves numbers.

Saiyans made a very detailed list of people who were pushed and failed. What reasonable counterpoints were made after he said that? Nothing.

Edit: skipped an entire page, and WHC isn't HIAC, one already booked, they don't do more than one.
 
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PHX

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[MENTION=71]deezy[/MENTION]

Since you don't know PSYCH like guys like me and Dale do I'll explain one more time. I did read his post originally even after knowing exactly how his post were going to be before reading it and responded to it just didn't to the point where it would have changed the entire subject of the thread and derail it. It was not a situation of tl;dr and not being able to refute stuff he was saying. It was a situation of if I did go into it the way he wanted to this thread would have been very little about Cena if at all and all about Punk, Bryan, ADR, Orton etc. Plus as I've said it doesn't help that we've had this debate a million times over the years we've been on the same forum. So what is the point of derailing a thread to have the same debate we've had so many times to the point where I know exactly what he is going to say and say the exact same thing in each and every post? It is counter productive and not worth changing the subject of what this thread is which is Cena returning to face ADR for the WHC.

So no, myself nor Dale were dismissing PSYCH's post for no reason or because we couldn't do our own 5 paragraph rebuttal full of counterpoints. He knows I can go back and fourth with him for pages he's just trying to bait me and others into turning this thread into something it is not supposed to be about so he can rant.
 

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Edit: skipped an entire page, and WHC isn't HIAC, one already booked, they don't do more than one.

Thought they did the first couple years and just didn't last year? I could be wrong though.
 
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Eh, the ranting has been hilarious and good points over the top imo - I'm one sure as hell is glad to see John Cena back into the fold just because he does seem to give the product something no-one else does and with Randy Orton making me want to switch off to me the return hugely welcomed plus we'll probably get some good matches out Cena - constantly delivering matches at ***1/2 plus which other's can't seem to manifest.

On the side note of other's failing, it's a bit of a shame; I thought Sheamus did solid numbers, Punk always faltered but Daniel Bryan leaves me scratching my head, he has appeal, he works the live crowd and second best wrestler in the company behind Cena yet he doesn't bring the numbers leaves me baffled. Too many blurred lines between midcard and main event these days with Cena being the only main event wrestler and everyone is mid-card blurring with main event fodder.

Punk was bound to turn people off, I got bored of his reign three odd months in; while Cena's reign back in 07 kept me interested on the sheer quality of his matches alone.

Hopefully John Cena will win and give me a reason to watch Raw everyweek or at least have ADR beat him using the feinted injury as an excuse.
 

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I wanted to jump in because there's a 4 page discussion going on about this... But I don't even know what we're arguing about and I skimmed every post. Whether John Cena can draw? Everyone agrees on that.

Cena is firmly the face of the company and honestly NEEDS to be the one holding the banner every now and then. However...

The problem I personally have with Cena is that he represents the status quo. Whenever Cena has the belt WWE goes into "Now we can relax, everything is fine" mode, the writers don't need to bother giving a reason to care because, the way they see it, it's John Cena so fans will tune in anyway. Then when he has to recharge WWE looks at what babyface fans are reacting to and gives him a storyline to get us invested. This is when we get fresh matches, feuds and scenarios, a glimpse into the future in a way.

The result of this pattern is that when Cena has a high profile feud WWE wants as many eyes on as possible, like vs The Rock, it's usually very "safe" and boring. Then all the risky, experimental angles and untapped talent emerge when no one's watching.

EDIT - Even if you think, hell even if you can prove, that Punk, Bryan, Sheamus, Orton and Ryback must be hacks who can never be on Cena's level, you can think that. But realize that WWE taking chances on these guys, especially given how long Cena's been around, is not just necessary but essential. Because one day WWE must find it's new John Cena.

Very good point.
 

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Very good point.

Status quo is there for a reason though, if a recipe works, why add something else to it? It'd be like saying.....KFC(not Troy) has some damn good chicken, but I think it needs something different, sure you could add a dash of salt, or pepper here or there. But the people who follow KFC and thik they know what the recipe is, are saying they should add something that the masses don't want.....like Wasabe.

WWE isn't going to change their recipe unless they find something their large audience would want, they won't just accept vanilla Pepsi just because a few people who discussed the cola-wars wanted it.

Got to find the right ingredient, and they have yet to find it.
 
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I'm going to quote the great Vince McMahon here:

"I could have picked ANYONE to play the Hulk Hogan character!". And he could have. He could have done the same with the John Cena character, because he knows that people for some reason love Mary Sue characters. If someone MUST replace John Cena, just have him be a face, win every match, possess physical power that would make Superman jealous, eat up screentime like the Big Show at a buffet, and viola! The NEXT John Cena! It's a formula that has been tried and true over the ages, and it would work with anyone on the roster. So, in essence, they only need "a John Cena" not necessarily "John Cena".
 

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I disagree with that point completely, that would work for him getting over with kids and women (if he's got a good body) and such, but people really don't realize how OVER Cena is with the males in the crowd. Yeah, you know those guys booing him and chanting "Cena sucks" that they've played off of the past two years, they play a part in getting Cena the biggest reaction out of anyone even if it's negative. They pay to boo him more than anyone else pays to cheer him but WWE doesn't give a fuck, money is money.

Back on track, Vince is way in over his head because you can't just get anyone because hardly anyone has the charisma of a John Cena or a Hulk Hogan, Vince can take credit all he wants and he deserves some but Cena and Hogan could not be played by just anyone.
 

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I'm going to quote the great Vince McMahon here:

"I could have picked ANYONE to play the Hulk Hogan character!". And he could have. He could have done the same with the John Cena character, because he knows that people for some reason love Mary Sue characters. If someone MUST replace John Cena, just have him be a face, win every match, possess physical power that would make Superman jealous, eat up screentime like the Big Show at a buffet, and viola! The NEXT John Cena! It's a formula that has been tried and true over the ages, and it would work with anyone on the roster. So, in essence, they only need "a John Cena" not necessarily "John Cena".
And yet there's only one Cena who has broken revenue records at multiple manias at the gate, only one who has moved millions of merch to the point Austin and Hogan did and will have a clothing line launched just for him, only one Cena who does unprecedented ambassador work, and only one Cena on the roster right now who doesn't force channel changes. Face facts he's cut from a different cloth than the rest of the current full time litter.

And very well, it could have been true before Benoit and Signature, but its not now as the others haven't done it with more titles to their names, stables, and everything than Cena had going into WM21. This isn't a golden age of talent; that was there when we had Austin, Rock, Angle, HHH, Taker, and Kane as our top 6. This isn't the silver age, that was when we had Cena, Dave, Edge, HBK, Rey, Jeff, HHH, and Taker main eventing. In terms of results, as in what theyve done to go with all their screen times, managers, ppvs, twitter, and resumes; the next 6 totem pole talent behind Cena can only be labeled as bronze because while their resumes glitter, none of them lay an egg that is worth anything.

We all won't ever agree because people think its insulting to call Sheamus, Orton, Punk, Rio, Dolph, and Bryan failures. Its not a talent knock its just what it is, they are a bunch of Wii Us or Sega Dreamcasts, fun and entertaining in their own rights, but all lack the umph to be taken serious by consumers.

That is why I'm just saying let Cena get the belt, reestablish it, and concentrate on making 3-5 stars to cash in on a year and two years from now. I'm not saying in that 1-2 year period stick Bryan, Punk, Sheamus, Dolph, ADR, and Ortom away from the title scene, just don't let them win it and bloat their resumes. Let them line up and lose, same way Booker T and RVD and Jericho and Kane all lined up in 04 and 05 to take losses in world title matches.

Nothing is gained from them holding the belt, they hurt the belt and company credibility when they touch it, so let them chase it and be interesting that way only to fail. Then have a new 6 man guard climb the ranks piling up wins, maybe securing a mid card title, tag title, chamber, mitb, or rumble wins along the way so that when WM31, Summerslam 14, and WM32 we have guys like Cody, Sandow, Wyatt, Langston, Reigns, and even the Goldberg wannabe Ryback matter going into their first title win. It should only take one.

It shouldn't be this incessant lets try to recreated Edge shit when Edge was legit whereas Punk, Bryan, Rio, Dolph, and the like werent well before they cashed in or were made champs. There shouldn't be a point where you are trying to make Orton the man of WWE, well 1/2 the face as the heel of the company when he was a 9x champ, as he should have already been made a be a star by now. You don't try to recreate Brock with a rapid rise because a guy is a gym freak and looks unique but lacks the credentials to be legit like Sheamus. These guys the 6 behind Cena, the ones he should be able to depend on to sell out arenas, keep viewers, and deliver on ppv while he rests and rehabs like past generation mega stars could theirs were just made all wrong and they are all beyond salvaging when you look at it from a business not idealist but realist standpoint.

They can be useful hands and offer some help, but it has to be billed against Cena, with Cena coming out on top like Trips did versus the Kane, Booker, RVD, and Jericho types. When the next 5-6 come out and rise up in 14 and 15 they can actually fill boots that HHH, HBk, Taker, Edge, Batsita, Rey, and the like left ... Yes they won't truly fill them all the way, much like those guys didnt fully fill attitude era boots, but it won't be a case of utter fail if you make the new cast fully credible starting now and don't fast track them as world champs in the hope a belt makes them believable simply because Flair, Austin, and Cena won it and main evented across the world with it
 

Luke Flywalker

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Saying Punk was a failure is saying you buy in to WWE's reasons for him being a failure.

Punk, as champion, was expected to do what no other superstar or champion has done since Stone Cold, and that was bring in viewers and ratings every week on RAW at the 10 o'clock hour. Punk never lost more viewers than the E usually loses at the top of that hour.... but he never made Austin-like gains, and WWE got fed up with his inability to do that. Nevermind that Summer of Punk was a total botch by the E from the moment Nash walked in to when Hunter got the eventual rub from Nash in that angle.

Daniel Bryan a failure? Because he had one reign which ended with a screwjob to set up a feud? Bryan's pops, in every single arena, have been louder than anything the E has heard since Rock's return and before that since Cena had a major portion of the adult male audience behind him. Again, WWE has botched on Bryan in this entire feud by not capitalizing or by spending what is now 2 PPV's without a WWE Champion. How is Bryan the failure when the E is the one prolonging his crowning?

You guys say a lot of very ridiculous things placing all of the blame on the talent and not considering for one moment that the company actually can do wrong... and does.



BTW, what was so "tainted" about Punk's MITB victory over Cena? Because Cena jumped out of the ring to knock out Ace? Ace's presence caused a distraction of Punk so that when he rolled into the ring, he got locked in the STF... so by all counts they were dead even in the distraction factor and that weighs out to a fair fight.
 
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