At the risk of seeming sexist, THIS is how you use women in wrestling

[Dolph'sZiggler]

So, women's wrestling doesn't draw, but D'lo vs Jarrett with puppies does? Sure. Speaking for myself, I'd rather see a decent divas match than a mid-carder treating a woman like crap for cheap heat.

Also, your "answer" to the diva problem is no answer at all. At best only one heel on the roster can benefit from being a pr*ck to his girl. Where does that leave the rest of the mid-carders who can't obtain actual heat?

Honestly, this topic is just really stupid. The crap you're talking is exactly what they're doing - using the divas to get faces and heels over while ignoring their wrestling ability. They used AJ to get heat on DB, Punk, Kane, Ziggler. They used Eve to get over Ryder, Cena. And then they turned them both into evil conniving sluts. You'd think that would be enough to satisfy the misogynists in the audience, but apparently not.

Lastly, this thread IS sexist. You can say "not sexist, just reality" as much as you want, but the real reality is that we don't live in caves anymore.

I would argue if you weren't just so blatantly wrong :

 

[Crayo]

Sorry Laura but it is true. Women's wrestling doesn't draw. The only time it has done so steadily in the business was in TNA in 2008.

It was drawing recently in TNA too... not just in 2008.

I think Laura made a fantastic counter-point actually, and I was actually interested in what some of you would counter her point with.

 

[Crayo]

Also, wasn't Sable a relatively decent draw in her time? I'm pretty sure Trish has made the WWE a lot of money too.

 

[Dolph'sZiggler]

Also, wasn't Sable a relatively decent draw in her time? I'm pretty sure Trish has made the WWE a lot of money too.

Sable was a good draw for what? Her Sable bomb? get real.

OH NO I'M SEXIST FOR POINTING OUT ANOTHER FACT

 

[Crayo]

Sable was a good draw for what? Her Sable bomb? get real.

OH NO I'M SEXIST FOR POINTING OUT ANOTHER FACT

From what I've read online she brought in consistently decent numbers, and had two successful playboy covers.

 

[Dolph'sZiggler]

From what I've read online she brought in consistently decent numbers, and had two successful playboy covers.

I'm not arguing that she was over. I'm saying she is over because of her sex appeal, like 99.99% of women who get over as a part of a wrestling program. She didn't even start wrestling until after she was so over.

 

[Saylor]

She is smoking hot. :

Fantastic legs.

 

[Swift]

Pretty sure Sable drew because of moments like...

... and not because she was some amazing wrassler (although she was pretty solid).

 

[Mustafar Reginald]

Well obviously using sex appeal to garner interest/heat or anything of that nature is effortless, easy, and most importantly effective. Their is no point in trying to dispute that fact.

However, I will come to the aid to women's wrestling. I honestly think that women's wrestling could be a viable draw and that you don't necessarily need to focus them around sex appeal for them to do anything positive for your business. For starters, you can point to all the rating losses or anything to that extent with WWE for the diva's division in the past few years but honestly the only difference between the diva's division and the male division (Okay, I know the division's are a little more separate than that, just go with it) isn't the gender. Ever since I began watching WWE has had the same method to booking the diva's, crappy and in under ten minutes a week. WWE hardly ever attempts to construct anything but the most basic storylines for the divas, without really developing anything but the most basic characters (like for today, how many diva's actually have discernible characters, pretty much all heels and faces are exactly the same [yes, this can extend past this division but that's where the next part comes in]), and finally with very little time devoted to them. You think John Cena would've gotten over like he did and as big of seller like he did if they only gave him six minutes each week and with barely any mic time or real angle? Oh, and based on what I understand, they're reprimanded when they wrestle too good. Michelle McCool brought up that her and Melina were yelled at for their match of Night Of Champions 09 bout being two good and that can't be seen as good as the male wrestlers, to make them better you know that thinking, and then Jericho came over and asked him would he please shut the hell up. Granted that could no longer be the case or just an isolated incident but I felt like bringing it up. It's a fun story.

Now, I was planning on researching the ratings segment by segment of the few angles I can think of that WWE actually put some effort into or some segments WWE gave a chance to but um, those angles happened like seven years ago and I couldn't find anything. However I'll bring up what I can and speculate. Back in 2004, Lita vs. Trish Stratus for the Women's Championship was the main event of Monday Night Raw. I thought it was a great match but what's important here is that WWE actually gave a diva's/women's match the main event and gave it some pretty good time. I don't actually know how the segment translated into viewership but I imagine it had to be doing good prior for WWE to actually book that. And that Trish/Mickie feud went over really well from what I understand. And I know, their was lesbian overtones, and actually lesbian moments, god bless 'em, but the focus was still mainly on the championship. It was still building towards a wrestling match, and from what I know, it worked well. You see, they can still use sex appeal, it doesn't have to go away but you can just use it to further investment in the characters in the division, and try and slide it into match development. It is possible to garner interest without it, you just have to treat it like you would any other segment, you have to develop characters people can be attached to and develop feuds that can garner interest. TNA did that well, hell I remember reading a bunch of reports that TNA's second show was going to be an entire show based around the Knockouts. Though that never happened of course.

And just like that never happened, I highly doubt WWE will ever figure out how to properly build a diva's division so that sex appeal isn't the only going for it. Because WWE doesn't know how to apparently, they've spent so much time booking that division purely around sex appeal that without that crutch that don't really have a concept of have to promote it. And even if they did, with all the years they've spent having it be nothing, the effort required to make this worth is too much for WWE to spend time investing in. It's not an easy thing to do, especially when people are so use to the precedent set that it's not worth it. But my point is, that with a smart booker, who actually doesn't mind putting in the effort, you could market that to be a success. And while it shouldn't be the focus or the only reason we care, there is nothing wrong with using sex appeal to help get that going or just as part of a feud now and again. Obviously I don't have anything against sex appeal, my avatar is of my Stephanie McMahon's ass after all.

 

[Danielson]

Where do you ppl get these statistics? I'm going to need sources because I have a hard time believing numbers thrown around. I can agree with the vast majority, or more than half not interested. The 90s and early 2000s was targeted toward greasy old fat lards rubbing one out to bikini contests/ whatever garbage thrown out there. Still, it's not perect but at least little girls can watch and you won't cringe if they aspire to be a female wrestler by watching their role models. Imagine your daughter in the 90s and 2000s lookin at Trish bark like a dog, and the amount of filth that was put on. No dad wants their daughter to be that. I don't know, I dig hot chick's but my view on life has changed since I was younger. Let em wrestle. Steph changed her creep ass dad' s take on female pro wrestling for the better. It's not perfect but fuck it's better

 

[Danielson]

I didn't say it did draw, I just said it's no worse than valet nonsense. Mid-carders don't exactly draw either. In the end it's just a matter of entertaining filler. And for me, personally, I'd rather see a decent divas match. I'm sure plenty of people would agree.

I think you're right and the 99% Stat thrown out by lockard seems weighted toward personal beliefs/exaggerated. Or we're both wrong and you represent the 1/100 women that care for female wrestling

 

[Majour]

It's not sexist, just reality. Nobody cares about women's wrestling (including 99% of female wrestling fans)

What utter shite. It's not sexist because it's true? No- it is sexist and the sad part is that it's true.

It's the same old shit from the people who actively don't like women's wrestling 'oh literally nobody likes it' when that's not true. Because seemingly some people think that their opinion applies to everybody. Not to mention, it's absolutely laughable that male fans 'know' what female fans want to see.

Funnily enough, according to some article I read, Brie Bella was number eight out of the top ten merch sellers on the WWE store last year, funny that since 'nobody cares about divas'

 

[Solidus1]

What utter shite. It's not sexist because it's true? No- it is sexist and the sad part is that it's true.

It's the same old shit from the people who actively don't like women's wrestling 'oh literally nobody likes it' when that's not true. Because seemingly some people think that their opinion applies to everybody. Not to mention, it's absolutely laughable that male fans 'know' what female fans want to see.

Funnily enough, according to some article I read, Brie Bella was number eight out of the top ten merch sellers on the WWE store last year, funny that since 'nobody cares about divas'

Womens wrestling is boring to watch though, especially in WWE.
If they (creative) put some real effort into storylines and gave us matches like this...



then it could be entertaining to watch. Instead we get women just being bitches to each other, pouting their lips, throwing weak slaps and pulling each others hair.

 

[Majour]

Womens wrestling is boring to watch though, especially in WWE.
If they (creative) put some real effort into storylines and gave us matches like this...



then it could be entertaining to watch. Instead we get women just being bitches to each other, pouting their lips, throwing weak slaps and pulling each others hair.

You're preaching to the choir. I'm well aware of how badly the divas division is written and booked for- and I'm pretty vocal about that. But it's just plain dishonesty/ignorance for people to claim that the female wrestlers have no fans and how nobody what so ever wants to watch it. If, like we have both said, the just invested in good story telling and booking then this wouldn't even be an argument.
But I'm going to disagree with you when you say that 'women's wrestling is boring to watch' in general. There are promotions that rely entirely on women's wrestling and whilst they're not the biggest promotions (or even close to being massive), they obviously still have some pull to the point that they're still around.

 

[Solidus1]

Speaking only on WWE/TNA there when I say it's boring. Unless it's a PPV, you can almost guarantee a divas match will be 3/4 minutes long consisting of a few slaps, a couple throws and a finisher.
There are some awesome moves coming from the divas though, Paige's submission for one. Anyway, more women like Paige and Gail Kim + better storylines would make for good womens wrestling.