AEW Double or Nothing May 23rd, 2020 Live Discussion

[Benoit's Weight Machine]

For those intersested - below are the forums current opinion on how the matches will go (i'm looking for a name for this btw - I'd like to include the forums "hive-mind" in the rankings but that has such negative connotations around it that I feel like another name would be better):

As you can see, as a whole we have some strong and some very strong opinions on who is likely to win most of the matches - apart from the TNT title match and the Womens title match.

Personally, I think there's an argument for both Cody and Archer winning the TNT title (which is what we see here) - Cody is the logical "John Cena" style guy to do media and events and him holding the title raises its value in that way BUT at the same time that does nothing for the World title. If Cody wins it also kills off Archers momentum.

If they put it on Archer, maybe by nefarious means (distracted by Jake and Brandy?) then it keeps Archers momentum going, keeps the feud between the two going only now it's for the TNT title AND, by virtue of both the AEW Rankings (Cody and Archer are ranked 1&2 respectively) and being a champ it lines Archer up as Moxs next challenger (assuming he retains).

Much like the predictions state, I can see that going either way.

The Womens title - They've built Shidas momentum so much... but also Rose is massively effective in her role. I think what we've been seeing is the slow build up to Britt Baker becoming the face of the division and, if she wasn't injured we may have seen the start of that transition by moving the title along to Shida. But without that logical next step being available I can't see any reason to put the belt on Shida other than for the sake of Shida. But I don't think she's as good as Rose, certainly not to be the spearhead of the division. I'd leave it on Rose and let her smash through everyone with the aim of using Bakers injury to turn her face on her return. To clarify, I don't think Bakers particularly special either but there's the making of a good story that could be told when we have fans back here...

Mox vs Lee - Putting the belt on Lee is possible ONLY if they put the TNT belt on Cody because Lee can't be the face of the company. But he could hold the world title as the leader of a bad guy faction if they had somebody else to do the media... TBH, I don't think either of them are doing much for the title, other than the initial surprise of him showing up Mox hasn't really set the world on fire (yes, circumstances beyond his control but c'mon, how about some social media?) and Lee would be worse.

My preference would be Lee winning the World title and Cody taking the TNT title... but there's always the little tease of Spears igniting a Horsemen to feud against Cody Rhodes there too...

I pretty much agree with all of this with the exception of the battle royal and the women's match. I have a hunch that whoever the mystery guy is will take it. If he doesn't win then he'll have a damn impressive showing. You don't piss away the buildup for a mystery opponent for it not to go anywhere.

I'm pretty sure given the way that AEW is booking Nyla, she's going to be a very long term champion. I don't agree with this because you can't properly build a division when your champion has X-Pac heat. I'm pretty sure that Shida was just built up to be squashed by Nyla. The announcers have not been putting over Shida as a credible threat to the championship other than simply stating that she is the #1 contender. Hopefully my hunch is wrong though because Shida is exactly who this division should be built around.

I've said it before but I feel like they have booked themselves into a corner with the TNT match. Jake stole all of Archer's heat so I don't see this match's storytelling being as good as the rest of Cody's PPV matches. We're either going to end up with a Warrior or Goldberg directionless title reign for Archer or we get Cody as champion which will devalue the world title as Cody has clearly been positioned as the franchise player of AEW. This would be akin to putting the Intercontinental belt on Hogan in 1988. Honestly I would have positioned someone like Darby or Colt Cabana to be the first TNT champion.

Something else that occurred to me last night is that the true main event and true selling point of this PPV is not Moxley vs. Lee but it is really the stadium stampede. Jericho is still very much the draw here. This is probably the booker's fault but there is just a lack of good opponents for Moxley. He's more of an attraction but that has been severely hampered by Corona. I would not be surprised to see them put the belt back on Jericho at Fight for the Fallen or whatever the next PPV will be.

 

[Hoss]

I have to agree that Moxley not using social media shouldn't be a knock against him. If anything, I prefer to see him avoid it, because it would be out of character for him to be utilizing it. And that's a separate conversation that can be had, regarding wrestlers and kayfabe in the social media age but for me, considering what Moxley's on-screen persona is, it's better that he isn't on social media a lot. Because that's not what he's about as a person or a character. If anything, I put the onus on AEW to create hype for him on social media. Be it through interviews or highlight reels, or whatever. Sadly his booking so far in these empty arena shows has been way less than ideal, but that can happen. It would be extremely premature to hit the panic button because he's having one underwhelming title defense in the wake of an unprecedented situation. And I think it would be an awful decision to go with Brodie Lee as champion here because the lack of interest in this particular match has a lot more to do with the negative perception if his Exalted One character than it has to do with anything Mox has done.

 

[Benoit's Weight Machine]

The social media discussion is interesting. Personally, I feel that social media has no place in wrestling. The reason why is because now instead of booking for 1-2 hours a week, you now have to book 24/7 and this is unfair to the bookers as well as the talent. The fact that most wrestlers insist on using their real names and breaking kayfabe makes it more destructive than helpful.

Imagine you're watching Breaking Bad and you just watched an intense cliffhanger, then Bryan Cranston starts tweeting about leaving the studio talking about the scene he just shot and then goes in and out of character while the actor that plays Gus Fring starts cutting promos on him. Sorry but that doesn't work for me brother. Just leave the original performance alone and let it speak for itself.

I could see it being used in a very limited capacity but I don't feel like anyone has figured out a compelling or constructive way to do so.

 

[Roy Mustang]

Someone not using social media is not a reason for them to drop the title. If Moxley doesn't want to use it all the time he shouldn't have to. And as we have seen that some people should stay the fuck away from it (for example Seth Rollins)

 

[Smart Marx]

For those intersested - below are the forums current opinion on how the matches will go (i'm looking for a name for this btw - I'd like to include the forums "hive-mind" in the rankings but that has such negative connotations around it that I feel like another name would be better):

As you can see, as a whole we have some strong and some very strong opinions on who is likely to win most of the matches - apart from the TNT title match and the Womens title match.

Personally, I think there's an argument for both Cody and Archer winning the TNT title (which is what we see here) - Cody is the logical "John Cena" style guy to do media and events and him holding the title raises its value in that way BUT at the same time that does nothing for the World title. If Cody wins it also kills off Archers momentum.

If they put it on Archer, maybe by nefarious means (distracted by Jake and Brandy?) then it keeps Archers momentum going, keeps the feud between the two going only now it's for the TNT title AND, by virtue of both the AEW Rankings (Cody and Archer are ranked 1&2 respectively) and being a champ it lines Archer up as Moxs next challenger (assuming he retains).

Much like the predictions state, I can see that going either way.

The Womens title - They've built Shidas momentum so much... but also Rose is massively effective in her role. I think what we've been seeing is the slow build up to Britt Baker becoming the face of the division and, if she wasn't injured we may have seen the start of that transition by moving the title along to Shida. But without that logical next step being available I can't see any reason to put the belt on Shida other than for the sake of Shida. But I don't think she's as good as Rose, certainly not to be the spearhead of the division. I'd leave it on Rose and let her smash through everyone with the aim of using Bakers injury to turn her face on her return. To clarify, I don't think Bakers particularly special either but there's the making of a good story that could be told when we have fans back here...

Mox vs Lee - Putting the belt on Lee is possible ONLY if they put the TNT belt on Cody because Lee can't be the face of the company. But he could hold the world title as the leader of a bad guy faction if they had somebody else to do the media... TBH, I don't think either of them are doing much for the title, other than the initial surprise of him showing up Mox hasn't really set the world on fire (yes, circumstances beyond his control but c'mon, how about some social media?) and Lee would be worse.

My preference would be Lee winning the World title and Cody taking the TNT title... but there's always the little tease of Spears igniting a Horsemen to feud against Cody Rhodes there too...

​

This is a cool thing you did here and I do hope it becomes a recurring feature. Avoid hive-mind pls.

 

[Smart Marx]

Someone not using social media is not a reason for them to drop the title. If Moxley doesn't want to use it all the time he shouldn't have to. And as we have seen that some people should stay the fuck away from it (for example Seth Rollins)

Is me not particularly caring about him a good reason?

For the record, I don’t think he should use twitter to be champion, but I do think he should as a Superstar.

 

[Hidden Blaze]

I'm ready for tonight and changing streams 500 times

 

[Smart Marx]

I'm ready for tonight and changing streams 500 times

I honestly hope not.

 

[Hidden Blaze]

I honestly hope not.

Same, but if going off the other times. it will likely happen.

Maybe we'll get lucky and they know that this time. people might not can afford it so they just go easier on them....maybe.

 

[Smart Marx]

It was honestly the worst the last time. The first couple were pretty good.

 

[Hidden Blaze]

It was honestly the worst the last time. The first couple were pretty good.

Were they? for some reason I remember having to change a lot those times also. Either way, hopefully tonight goes great.

 

[Smart Marx]

Were they? for some reason I remember having to change a lot those times also. Either way, hopefully tonight goes great.

Fyter Fest, All Out, I think I changed the stream tops 4 times. During he last show it was almost every 10 minutes.

 

[Hidden Blaze]

Fyter Fest, All Out, I think I changed the stream tops 4 times. During he last show it was almost every 10 minutes.

Fyter Fest was free tho wasn't it? did you mean Full Gear? or am I just having a shitty ass memory here. Which, I do got a shitty memory sometimes.

But yeah, 4 times wouldn't be bad, so hopefully it's back to that.

 

[Chris]

I know Double or Nothing last year had a great stream that only got taken down for the last five minutes right after Mox appeared in the crowd

 

[Davey Wrestling]

Your obsession with social media is a very weird way of judging things. What did you judge champions on before social media existed?

Whether they entertain me, whether they entertain lots of others (based on crowd reactions) and whether they come across as a "star", which is still the way I judge wrestlers now. I'm not sure why you believe I'm obsessed with social media based on what I've written. Do you believe that the champion of a promotion, particularly a champion that has name value in a newly created promotion, that was almost certainly only signed because of that name value, shouldn't be involved in promoting? Social media is the example because, as you pointed out, there's not much of anything else going on right now. Apart from youtube shows. And Podcasts... other social media things he isn't on.

I also don't think Mox not "promoting himself" has anything to do with how he's been booked. People know he's the champion, him going on about it on Twitter probably wouldn't change much. I also don't know what you mean by "youtube shows", do you mean like interviews? Cos none of that stuff is happening right now cos of corona, so I don't really know what you expect Mox to do?

I didn't suggest that him not promoting himself has anything to do with the way he's booked (although honestly, if a wrestler were creating a buzz for themselves then, in any company not run by Vince McMahon, it would positively effect how they were booked). A wrestler has two means of getting over, either the company push him/her (see WWE with Cena or Reigns) or they push themselves (see Zack Ryder, The Elite, Jericho). Since putting the belt on him AEW have barely used Moxley, and yes that's because of the virus, but its still a thing that's true regardless of the qualifier - by my math that means there's one avenue left for Moxley to push into to continue to feel important.... maybe I'm wrong? Maybe Jon Moxley stays relevant just by being Jon Moxley?

Someone not using social media is not a reason for them to drop the title. If Moxley doesn't want to use it all the time he shouldn't have to. And as we have seen that some people should stay the fuck away from it (for example Seth Rollins)

Again, nobody said he should drop the title because he sucks at social media. What was said is that there are better options than Moxley because he doesn't use social media well and other people do. This isn't WWE, it's not a juggernaut that get's by on the value of the promotions name alone, it's AEW, a promotion that needs it's star performers to build the brand of the promotion and put it into popular culture (even if it's just the wrestling segment of that pop culture).

In my opinion Moxley shouldn't drop the title because of social media, he should drop the title because he's an average wrestler and isn't entertaining to watch. He doesn't seem to be going through any sort of character progression and since Jericho finished carrying him to a decent feud, he has a belt and no opponents, he's just "there" (when he is, in fact, there). Is that down to AEW as a company? Probably, but given that AEW performers (as far as I'm aware) have a massive input into their own stuff... say by using social media to sew the seeds for feuds and matches for example (), it's also down to Moxley.

He was good for a "pop" because he left WWE but since there aren't any crowds anymore and the novelty will wear off before they're back... Tell me how it wouldn't make sense to put the title on somebody you can build a story around? Or, if you can build one around Mox as champion with the current roster, what is it?

Do I think he should lose the title here? I'm never a fan of short title reigns because they devalue the belt.... but in this instance, especially if they're putting the TNT title on Cody - then yes, I think there are more storylines to be told with the Dark Order holding the title than there are with Jon Moxley.


-Edit- sorry for turning the thread into a mini-argument but most of this regards Moxley as champion so it probably fits in here.