Abortion

[The Wrestling Addict]

I thought it would be a solid topic worth debating. Pretty much I am asking what your views on abortion are? I am against it but I will not explain why until someone says why they are for it.

 

[PHX]

Only way I'd be for it if it was a situation where the woman was raped by some guy. Otherwise I'm totally against it as it is prety much murder. Don't want a single chance of having a kid cause you're not ready don't have sex simple as that.

 

[Defiant]

Pro-choice.

Most Pro-life arguments I've heard are usually bogged down in religion to some extent, which doesn't seem like rational thinking to me.

I don't see it as murder at all, either. If it was, any man who's masterbated more than once or any woman who's had more than one period would be considered a serial killer.

You can disagree with abortion morally, but outlawing it is silly. As we've seen with any kind of prohibition, people will still do it. At least with abortion clinics it can be done by professionals in a safe, controlled envornment. If abortion was outlawed, you'd see plenty of people going back to the old days before we had clinics and specialists, where women would be getting "operations" performed on them in back-alleys with coat hangers.

 

[The Wrestling Addict]

Pro-choice.

Most Pro-life arguments I've heard are usually bogged down in religion to some extent, which doesn't seem like rational thinking to me.

I don't see it as murder at all, either. If it was, any man who's masterbated more than once or any woman who's had more than one period would be considered a serial killer.

If it's not murder, how come if I were to go out and shoot a pregonant woman, I would be charged with two murders? It's murder in that sitiuation. Why wouldn't it be murder if you are aborting? Especially when aborting a child is more painful than shooting it.

 

[Defiant]

If it's not murder, how come if I were to go out and shoot a pregonant woman, I would be charged with two murders? It's murder in that sitiuation. Why wouldn't it be murder if you are aborting? Especially when aborting a child is more painful than shooting it.

There are plenty of laws I don't agree with and I don't necessarily agree with that particular one, but I can kinda see it. Not only is the woman being killed, but you've also prevented another life from happening. Not taking a second life, but preventing one. There is a moral and philisophical difference there, but in the objective eyes of the law I'd say it constitutes double murder for all intents and purposes.

And how exactly is murdering a pregnant woman performing abortion? I can only see that if it was the woman's will, but thats getting into euthenasia which is a whole other topic.

 

[The Wrestling Addict]

I am not saying killing a pregonant woman is abortion. I was just using it as an example as it contradicts itself.

Why should a woman be allowed to abort a baby? People may say there is no life yet but still, you are preventing a person from being able to live. If a woman is allowed to prevent her child from living, because she doesn't want it to live (for different reasons) I should be allowed to go out and kill my neighbor down the street because I don't want him living. What if Martin Luther King Jr. was aborted? Black people in the United States may not have the rights they have now. If a woman aborts a baby, she is preventing a person in this world from making a difference. If the mother can't take care of a baby, she could put it up for adoption and give it to a family who is unable to have a kid.

 

[Defiant]

Let me pose this question then: Is life really so great and so sacred that it has to be lived?

I'm going to try and touch on as many points for Pro-choice that I can remember, but you and I are looking at this from entirely different perspectives. Your belief regards whether or not murder is relevant before the victim in question has even been born. My opinion does not stem from there at all. My opinion stems from whether or not the woman bearing the child should even bring a child into the world in the first place.

A friend of mine my age (we're both 20) just a couple of months ago got an abortion. She and her boyfriend had consensual sex but were not very careful, they had no intention of having a child. She is still living at home looking for a job, while the boyfriend was kicked out of his house about 5 months ago and is currently staying with her. They are a rocky couple, but he stood by her.

She is one of the most open minded, down to earth people I know and yet she was still pulling her hair out over the decision (mind you she didn't know she was even pregnant until a couple of months in). She knew that the longer she hesitated, the more attached to the child she would become. But as smart as she is she is still young, she is not yet independant enough to be considering a child and she did not know what to do.

I gave her some advice that I had once heard somewhere, I can't remember where: There are two ways you can look at the question of whether one should become a parent:

1. "How will the child impact my life?" - By this I mean, the woman in question is considering how much of a drain the child will be on her money and resources, her social life and her appearance.

2. "How will my life impact the child's?" - The woman is wondering whether she is mentally, physically, financially, etc. prepared to raise a child. Can she provide for it? Will she have a good influence on it? Would it be right to bring a child into an ubringing that may not be stable?

Odds are you're better off having the child if you think by the latter, it shows that you are selfless, compassionate and concerned. However, my friend fell into the first category. There is nothing wrong with that, it just shows that she has priorities to attend to before even thinking about parenthood.

The more she thought about the decision - which she basically was every second of every day - the more depressed she became. She eventually went with the abortion, knowing that keeping the baby would be a detriment to everybody involved and that she was far too young for the responsibility of parenthood.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason I bring that up is because I had discussed abortion with her over the bong a couple of times before and her opinion was actually identical to yours. What she realised was that the hypothetical question of murder and abortion isn't going to do a whole lot for you once you're actually placed in the situation and you have to consider ALL factors. She eventually realised that bringing a child into the world just because it had been conceived was actually irresponsible because the child could not possibly have a comfortable upbringing. After all, she can barely support herself at this stage.

Abortion is not legally considered murder. So to go through with having a child simply because someone of an opposing viewpoint may consider you a murderer based on their own moral perspective despite all other factors that play into the woman's living conditions, is simply not rational thinking.

Now, as for "preserving the life of the child"...

There was once upon a time, not all that long ago, that abortion was hugely illegal. But this didn't stop women from having abortions, they just did it in privacy, without trained doctors or safe environments. The death rate of women between 16 and 24 was alarmingly high. Having abortion illegal killed almost an equal amount of women to the children it saved. Not so helpful. Prohibition of any kind does not work as I briefly mentioned in my post above, but in regards to abortion it was actually deadly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

You posed the double murder hypothetical earlier so I... Well, George Carlin has a couple for you:

If a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them? How come every time there's a misscarriage we don't have a funeral? How come people say "We have two children and one on the way" instead of "We have three children"? Once these Pro-lifers have experienced their first labour pains and first pregnancies and have had to raise a couple of children on minimum wage, then I'd be glad to hear what they have to say about abortion.

I'll conclude this rant by saying this: If you are personally opposed to abortion, despite how little or vast knowledge on the subject influences your perception of it, that's fine. You have the right to believe whatever you want and you have the right to voice your opinion.

But please, for the love of fuck, can you stop using the word murderer to describe anyone Pro-choice?? Putting aside all the physical pain and stress that the birth process involves, almost all women who unexpectedly fall pregnant have to go through one of the most difficult mental dilemma's you could imagine, and even those who abort the child spend a long time kicking themselves over the "what ifs". No woman wants to let motherhood slip away like that, but those who do have chosen so because they realise that they are simply not prepared or ready to become a parent. Parenthood requires women to be almost completely stable and independant in all areas, to be willing to put a permanent filter on their social life, to surrender quite a lot of their youthful appearance as well as at least the next two decades of their life.

Whatever they choose to do, you have to respect their decision because everyone has different lives, different backgrounds, different living environments, socio-economic conditions and perspectives. Calling a woman a murderer because they choose not to go through with it all - at least not yet - is the fucking height of ignorance. I am not willing to show any respect for a Pro-lifer in the abortion argument if they are going to label the woman as scum for making a tougher decision than you could fathom.

 

[John McHenry]

Since this is a thread of mostly hypotheticals.

If you knew that the mother were going to die if the baby were born (be it c section or otherwise) would you then allow for an abortion? Which "murder" is worse the one with no conscious thought process or the woman who knows whats going on?



Also very well put argument.

 

[Slim]

I can only see abortion acceptable in two situations. One is rape because that was beyond control. 2 is if the life of the mother is in jeopardy due to the child. If that be the case then preserve the life of the mother. Other than that I do not see it as acceptable.

 

[PHIL DUNPHY'S MOUSTACHE]

I'm against it, unless it's in exceptional circumstances.

Those circumstances are solely those involving rape - it is not a consentual act, the person should feel no need to carry to term the spawn of her attacker, so it's justified there.

However, for those who use no protection, or for the drunk sluts who are not careful, then it's their own fault and a consequence for their actions, and will maybe get them to mature quite a bit. Why kill a child for your moments of stupidity? They can always adopt out the child if they feel it will be a burden on them, or they won't be able to provide for it. Abortion is the cowards way out imo.

 

[Zen]

I support abortion at any point prior to birth. I am also a supporter of (positive) eugenics. Furthermore, I have absolutely no problem giving full reproductive control to the mother.

 

[The Cork]

I cant see a sane argument against it, tbh.

Pro-lifers are of the thinking that its cruel to abort, but forcing a woman to keep a child she doesnt want is even worse, it will lead to neglect and quite possibly abuse, no doubt about it.

 

[Defiant]

However, for those who use no protection, or for the drunk sluts who are not careful, then it's their own fault and a consequence for their actions, and will maybe get them to mature quite a bit. Why kill a child for your moments of stupidity? They can always adopt out the child if they feel it will be a burden on them, or they won't be able to provide for it. Abortion is the cowards way out imo.

So a child is basically a punishment for people who, for whatever reason, did not use protection or use protection properly? You're okay with an unprepared and most likely resentful couple raising a child because "that'll teach those fuckers" and choosing not to do so is cowardly?

 

[PHIL DUNPHY'S MOUSTACHE]

So a child is basically a punishment for people who, for whatever reason, did not use protection or use protection properly? You're okay with an unprepared and most likely resentful couple raising a child because "that'll teach those fuckers" and choosing not to do so is cowardly?

Can you read? If they feel they will be unfit to raise the child, put it up for adoption. Not that hard to get organised, and that way a couple who cannot conceive can still have a child.

A baby should not be aborted solely because mummy couldn't keep her legs shut when she's fertile, or because daddy couldn't wrap his prick.

 

[Defiant]

I still maintain the general sentiment in that post, but yeah I actually did misread yours, sorry. I was high yesterday and I'm high again now.