Fallen Angel 2.0?

  • Welcome to "The New" Wrestling Smarks Forum!

    I see that you are not currently registered on our forum. It only takes a second, and you can even login with your Facebook! If you would like to register now, pease click here: Register

    Once registered please introduce yourself in our introduction thread which can be found here: Introduction Board


JurassicBonez

Active Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
3,575
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
35
Location
Easton, Maryland
So, the key issue is 'newness' not size then....




As for your examples....

Kane - Had been in WWE for nearly 6 months before facing Taker and had already fueded with Mankind as well as having a fair few squash matches as well. The Taker's Brother was all that was required to get him over regardles of his size.

Lesnar - Well his gimmick was 'The Next Big Thing'!!! LOL (note: no pun about his actual physical size)... IMO Taker broke him in - Intentinoally putting accross the idea tha if he can hang with, and even cleanly beat Taker then, well he certainly is "credible".

The only person I can think of in recent time that debuted and fueded with Taker straight off the bat was Heidenreich.

I don't mean just feuding with Taker, I mean within the 1st few months of debuting, they went into a ME feud or a feud with someone of ME caliber.

As far as I can remember, there has been no small guy that upon his debut, feuded with a main eventer and looked credible in the feud, that's the point im trying to get across. According to wiki (which I no isn't always 100%) being billed as 5ft 11, Taker 6ft 10.5in, putting yourself in the position of a regular fan, could you see The Phenom, The Deadman, The Ruler of Death Valley, the man who's been dominating WWE (WWF) for almost 20 years and still on top of his game, losing to some guy who you've never heard of, never seen, and that size?

Then coming from the buisness point of view, would you want somebody who NEVER wrestled in front of a large crowd that WWE pulls, never wrestled a dark match, start straight off with a feud against Taker? Back then, they had dark matches, jobbing people out, Heat, Velocity, shows like that to test people. This guy hasn't done any of that.



Besides, who said Hade was facing Taker in his first match? He could cut promos for weeks and weeks, then start beating jobbers while sending messages to Taker. THEN, he faces Taker.

Hade Vansen defeats Unknown jobber #1: "Take that Taker"
Hade Vansen defeats Kunk fu Naki: "Take that Taker"
Hade Vansen defeats Unknown jobber #2: "I'm the man Taker"
Hade Vansen defeats Hawkins: "Taker I'm coming for you"
Hade Vansen defeats Goldman: "Taker (what ever the next ppv is) Me you 1 on 1"

You do mean like that right?
 
Joined
Dec 23, 2008
Messages
1,407
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
42
^To add to that, he'd have to beat some credible mid carder before he would step up to take on UT. Someone like Cody Rhodes or Kofi Kingston.
 

JurassicBonez

Active Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
3,575
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
35
Location
Easton, Maryland
^To add to that, he'd have to beat some credible mid carder before he would step up to take on UT. Someone like Cody Rhodes or Kofi Kingston.

Hade Vansen defeats Unknown jobber #1 (botches moves, chokes on promo): "Take that Taker"

Tazz: "Who the hell is that?"

Hade Vansen defeats Kunk fu Naki: "Take that Taker"

Hade Vansen defeats Unknown jobber #2(botches moves, chokes on promo): "I'm the man Taker"
Tazz: Taker, how do you feel about Hade Vansen calling you out?
Taker: Who the Fu... (Camera cuts him off)

Hade Vansen defeats Hawkins: "Taker I'm coming for you"

Hade Vansen defeats Goldman(botches promo again): "Taker (what ever the next ppv is) Me you 1 on 1"


Hade Vansen defeats Cody Rhodes (botches moves in match): "Taker as you saw I just beat the shit out of Cody Rhodes, now me and you next ppv 1 on 1."

Tazz: "Well that was some match. The crowd was dead because for some odd reason, there were too bad guys in the ring."

JR: "Terrible terrible booking there Tazz, Terrible"

Taker: "Just because you beat some guy that can't win a match with out his partners, you think you've proven yourself to face me?"

Next Week:

Hade Vansen defeats Kingston (botches moves in match): "There Taker, I beat a former IC champ and former tag team champ. So now I've proven myself to you. I want my ppv match!"

Tazz: "FUCK!!"
"I was there when Kingston debuted in the WWE on ECW brand, great kid, bright future"

JR: "A handfull of tights Tazz, A handfull of tights. Why the hell was Kingston on Smackdown anyway Tazz? I thought ECW did the brand exchange not RAW."

Taker: Vansen, take your ass back to fcw, wrestle some dark matches, get in some credible feud, and then come to me. Maybe then it wont seem like a total squash at a ppv."

Like that right?
 

The Rated R CMStar

Guest
Are you playing stupid or can someone seriously be that dumb?

Let me guess, you are one the guys that wines about WWE loving big, muscular boys, but then someone "small" rolls in and you condemne him from the very get go.


I mean, before I even start addressing the booking, let me say: botch moves? Botch promos? Hade Vansen has been wrestling since 2001, that's 7 years of experience, and yes, while he has never been on the big leagues, I doubt he'll botch that mutch.

Second, did you miss his character? He is a dark character, his promos won't be: "I am the man Taker, face me".

It would be something like:

Hade Vansen defeats Scotty Goldman. Promo: I have come to the WWE in search of power. For many years I have been in pursuit of the ultimate power, and now, all that I lack is your inmortality.

JR: Who is that? And who is he talking about?

Tazz: I dont know, but he looked damn impressive out there.


Keep it like that for 4 weeks, then in another match, he wins a match and out come Ken Fertig and Black Pain, finalizing the stable. During all this time Vansen cuts promos sending the same message, he is here for someone's immortality.


With the stable finalized, in one Taker match, out of nowhere the three men attack Taker costing him the match. They book Hade vs Taker, but the match never happens as Fertig and Black Pain brutally attack The Undertaker.

Taker takes one of his time outs, Vansen gets even more build up in the mean time, bragging about how he finally has the ultimate power and gift and he is unbeatable. Taker comes back and we have Taker vs Vansen.



Oh geez, that's imposible. I mean, it worked for Kozlov and Khali, but that won't work for someone who can actually wrestle better than them just because he is 5'11.
 

JurassicBonez

Active Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
3,575
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
35
Location
Easton, Maryland
Are you playing stupid or can someone seriously be that dumb?

Let me guess, you are one the guys that wines about WWE loving big, muscular boys, but then someone "small" rolls in and you condemne him from the very get go.

You find anywhere where I've said this any where, find proof I've thought this and I'll gladly stop debating. I don't wine, wining gets you know where, I learned that when I was younger before I started school so why start again when I'm an adult? I said before its not only his size which is what your saying. And I said that it would probably be a good feud, but not 1 for Vansen to start off on. And besides, if I thought this way, you would see me starting threads at least twice a month bashing the smaller guys, on a count that's all that's been debuting recently.

I mean, before I even start addressing the booking, let me say: botch moves? Botch promos? Hade Vansen has been wrestling since 2001, that's 7 years of experience, and yes, while he has never been on the big leagues, I doubt he'll botch that mutch.

Okay so I went over board with the botching, I'll admit that. But weather he has 7 years experience doesn't mean he wont choke going out infront of a WWE audience. How does WWE prevent this from happening, they had their wrestlers go through developmental, which he has done, they had them wrestle on shows like Heat, Velocity, ECW, he didn't do that, they have them wrestle dark matches, which he hasn't done either. And right off the bat, they were putting him in a feud with a main eventer in Taker, A vet in the E. That's one hell of a push, they obviously had confidence in the guy. That pressure of them thinking so high of him, wanting him to do so much so well in his debut, bypassing what others had done in getting experience in the WWE atmosphere before debuting, and debuting in a feud with Taker, I don't care how much experience anyone has in the indy or whatever type of promotion he was in, they're bound to choke. The 1st that I see do that, I'll instantly gain the highest respect for them.

Second, did you miss his character? He is a dark character, his promos won't be: "I am the man Taker, face me".

It would be something like:

Hade Vansen defeats Scotty Goldman. Promo: I have come to the WWE in search of power. For many years I have been in pursuit of the ultimate power, and now, all that I lack is your inmortality.

JR: Who is that? And who is he talking about?

Tazz: I dont know, but he looked damn impressive out there.


Keep it like that for 4 weeks, then in another match, he wins a match and out come Ken Fertig and Black Pain, finalizing the stable. During all this time Vansen cuts promos sending the same message, he is here for someone's immortality.


With the stable finalized, in one Taker match, out of nowhere the three men attack Taker costing him the match. They book Hade vs Taker, but the match never happens as Fertig and Black Pain brutally attack The Undertaker.

Taker takes one of his time outs, Vansen gets even more build up in the mean time, bragging about how he finally has the ultimate power and gift and he is unbeatable. Taker comes back and we have Taker vs Vansen.

By your own time frame here, this would run into Wrestlemania. He'd debut sometime in January, talk shit to Taker, get his stable together, this would run into the road to Wrestlemania, and leading toward Wrestlemania. Would that get more ppv buys at WWE's biggest PPV? In all honestly, all biasness aside, would you being a buisiness man of the US's biggest wrestling promotion trust somebody in Vansen to take on somebody like Taker at Wrestlemania?

Oh geez, that's imposible. I mean, it worked for Kozlov and Khali, but that won't work for someone who can actually wrestle better than them just because he is 5'11.

Who said anything about wrestling ability? I never not once said anything about his wrestling ability being bad. You're either beating around the bush about what I'm trying to say or just not understanding what I'm trying to say. If that's the case I'll gladly retype it all again. But I think this post would point it all out.
 

The Rated R CMStar

Guest
1) You might have not said it textually, but you are implying it. You are giving as one of the primary reasons for Hade Vansen to choke is his size, and the fact that he wouldn't look credible going into a feud with him.

2) Bound to choke? Lol, just lol. This might not be the best example as well, he sucks but, I didn't see The Great Khali choking didn't he? BTW, there's no HEAT or Velocity.

Also, ever heard of house shows? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the guy choking and botching, at least on his delivery and performance. Crowd reaction? Unpredictable, but I doubt he'll botch.


3) Like I said before, the time frame to introduce Hade Vansen was bad. The feud itself would be good if booked similar to what I said. Go back to my posts and see that I criticized the timing of this.

4) I made the last point because you have stated before that a rookie coming in and feuding with Taker would work better if it was a huge monster. Khali and Kozlov debuted and rather fast were in main feuds. Why would it be different to Hade Vansen? His height? We come full circle.


Like I said, this feud isn't bound to choke. Yes, the crowd might seat on their hands while Hade Vansen is around, but I doubt Vansen himself would choke. Like I said, have him cut promos while wrestling little matches and wrestling on house shows, not targetting directly Taker but implying it, and after a few weeks, go full gear with the feud.


I am not saying the feud is bound to happen, however, "a priori", the possibility of Hade Vansen choking isn't one of the reasons it might happen, and the line you said about him being bound to choke by facing Taker is rather lame. If anything, it would be a huge boost to him, as Taker would help him sharpen up in the ring and being in the ring with him would get him instant heat.
 

JurassicBonez

Active Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
3,575
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
35
Location
Easton, Maryland
1) You might have not said it textually, but you are implying it. You are giving as one of the primary reasons for Hade Vansen to choke is his size, and the fact that he wouldn't look credible going into a feud with him.

I'm implying that I "wine" about WWE loving big muscular guys, but when someone small rolls in I blast them? How's that? Because I'm debating about 1 guy that happens to be a small? And there no where is it that my primary reason for him to choke is his size, I said that would be due to others things, which I'll address later in this post. But yes, I did say I don't THINK my opinion, he wouldn't look credible going straight into a feud with Taker upon debuting.

2) Bound to choke? Lol, just lol. This might not be the best example as well, he sucks but, I didn't see The Great Khali choking didn't he? BTW, there's no HEAT or Velocity.

Also, ever heard of house shows? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the guy choking and botching, at least on his delivery and performance. Crowd reaction? Unpredictable, but I doubt he'll botch.

Yes I'm aware that there's no HEAT or Velocity, and I know what house shows are. And no, from what I saw Khali didn't botch anything. But Khali didn't miss almost an entire year of wrestling sidelined from an injury, come back have one match in development, and go straight into a program with Taker, as what Vansen was doing.

3) Like I said before, the time frame to introduce Hade Vansen was bad. The feud itself would be good if booked similar to what I said. Go back to my posts and see that I criticized the timing of this.

I stated before too that it would be a good feud, just not one for him to have right off the bat. That was said in one of my beginning post. But no I can't have that opinion because he's small right, I wine and blast guys like this.

4) I made the last point because you have stated before that a rookie coming in and feuding with Taker would work better if it was a huge monster. Khali and Kozlov debuted and rather fast were in main feuds. Why would it be different to Hade Vansen? His height? We come full circle.

Huge monster? Those were your words, not mine. I gave examples of how bigger rookies that came in and almost immediatly went into a main event feud/feud with main eventers, and stated that there haven't been any small rookies come in and jump into a feud like that.


Like I said, this feud isn't bound to choke. Yes, the crowd might seat on their hands while Hade Vansen is around, but I doubt Vansen himself would choke. Like I said, have him cut promos while wrestling little matches and wrestling on house shows, not targetting directly Taker but implying it, and after a few weeks, go full gear with the feud.


I am not saying the feud is bound to happen, however, "a priori", the possibility of Hade Vansen choking isn't one of the reasons it might happen, and the line you said about him being bound to choke by facing Taker is rather lame. If anything, it would be a huge boost to him, as Taker would help him sharpen up in the ring and being in the ring with him would get him instant heat.

Again I didn't say just him facing Taker, he'll be bound to choke. You're either confusing what I say, mixing it up, or just taking only half of what I say and not all. I said all the pressure of everything on him (facing Taker being ONE of them) then he would.

I want you to put yourself in the shoes of a Multi-millionaire, whos the owner of the biggest wrestling promotion in the United States. You get word that Mr. Vansen while be dubuting in a few against in a feud with The Undertaker. You see his history, wrestling for 7 years, and all the rest of the stuff you said about him. Sounds good.

Then you see other things, the stuff I stated. He's never wrestled in front of a large WWE audience, never done a dark match, has been out for an injury from January, and just came back and had one match in developmental, and being called up to the main roster in a feud with The Undertaker? I don't know about you but then I'd take into consideration, that this is one hell of a push. Having only wrestled once since January, going straight into something like that. Okay so he only has wrestled once in 12 months, never wrestled in front of a WWE crowd, going straight into a feud with Taker right upon debut, "there could have been others but they choose me", you don't think that's a lot of pressure. Sure it would be an honor to do so but still the pressue of the whole thing would have to get to the toughest guy. That's pretty much do or die, either make it good or your done. You mess up with something that high staked, you have the possibility of going back to developmental for a long long time or get released. They are doing talent cuts. Now if all that being put on 1 guy, a rookie, if that isn't a shit load of pressure then I don't know what is.

As I've said, it's not just size that in the argument, it's amongst other things as well. Your taking it as since the 1st post I made was about his size that that is my only argument, Ignoring everything else I've stated. I wasn't saying he had bad talent, that he sucks, I've never seen the guy wrestle before, I said the pressure that's on him would take into effect leading to screw ups. If it was a guy like Brock Lesnar that had a back ground like that, I would have said the same thing, If it was Khali, Kozloff, A 7ft 400lbs rookie, it wouldn't matter, I would have said the same thing, I just would have left out the size matter.