What is really good about the miz?????

[Kaedon]

I miss JBL, that video made me laugh. But honestly, I dont dig him being champion and all.. theres honestly nothing special about him, other than he gets heat like crazy.

Yeah, if only certain other jobbers URRR champions could get heat like that....

 

[KenFan4life]

WWE World Champions are like Presidents of America, I ain't voting for the guy, but everyone hops from one bandwagon to the other.....remember when it was "I HEAR VOICES IN MY HEAD!" and everyone took nude photos of themselves doing the Orton Pose....or the "I slice my wrist and drink pepsi!" wagon....

 

[Luke Flywalker]

WWE World Champions are like Presidents of America, I ain't voting for the guy, but everyone hops from one bandwagon to the other.....remember when it was "I HEAR VOICES IN MY HEAD!" and everyone took nude photos of themselves doing the Orton Pose....or the "I slice my wrist and drink pepsi!" wagon....

Really?



Really?



Really?



Punk is a cutter now?



And you just compared bandwagoning WWE champions to the United States presidency? Oh, you mean how it's cool to HATE on a President is comparable to LIKING a WWE Champion. Okay, gotcha...



Not everybody is just up and running with The Miz; people have been this way with Miz for much of the past three years.

 

[1chiban]

My only problem with The Miz title reign is that he's being booked really badly. If they've gone for the Ric Flair style 'cheeky heel clings on by the skin of his teeth' reign then they've gone a bit too far as Miz never seems to win at all bar title matches where someone has interfered. He needs a clean win over Lawler and possibly a clean win over someone else major before 'Mania to make him more of a legit threat to Cena (who I think will win the Elim Chamber)

 

[Luke Flywalker]

^He got pinned in a tag match after an RKO; and Riley lost another tag match. I mean, if you want the occasional clean win, fine... but once again, Triple H went about 3 years without one clean victory... THREE YEARS. And then when Evolution was formed, he went right back to that same formula.

I think people tend to actually amplify this need for Miz to win clean because he's never been established as a clean-win guy against a main-eventer... but in the same sense, it plays perfectly to his MITB victory, and he's scratched and clawed to hold onto the belt so far. Something tells me we'll get those clean victories soon enough, Miz won't be a guy Vince just throws back on the shelf for the rest of his meaningless career... he'll be around for a long time in the main event scene, whether it be to my liking or Kaedon's dismay.

I say just show patience if you can't enjoy it for what it is currently.

 

[Kaedon]

Something I noticed, whenever Miz comes out and he gets this chorus of boo's I can always hear Cole's golf clap for him. But when Vickie comes out, some who has actual heat, you can't hear a fucking thing. If you're going to have a heel champ, THAT's the kind of heat they need to have.

Something else i just noticed, half the time when he grabs a hold of a submission, he just fucking sits there. At least when "Resthold Randy" or Dolph grab the same chinlock, they fucking work it and look like they're trying to tear the opponents head off. Miz, because he's inexperienced sits there like a Blue bump on a log.

 

[KenFan4life]

Really?

Really?
Really?
Punk is a cutter now?
And you just compared bandwagoning WWE champions to the United States presidency? Oh, you mean how it's cool to HATE on a President is comparable to LIKING a WWE Champion. Okay, gotcha...

Not everybody is just up and running with The Miz; people have been this way with Miz for much of the past three years.

damn ni'gga ....chill, if you've got you're little shrine to miz, that's cool, just don't go all John Lemmons and shoot him.....MIZ don't sing for the beattles!!!!

 

[1chiban]

Something I noticed, whenever Miz comes out and he gets this chorus of boo's I can always hear Cole's golf clap for him. But when Vickie comes out, some who has actual heat, you can't hear a fucking thing. If you're going to have a heel champ, THAT's the kind of heat they need to have.

You're right, of course. However, Vickie seems to be the only one getting that aside from Michael Cole who is getting a fair bit of 'get off of my TV' heat which isn't good as it turns into 'I will change channels' heat. I think it very much depends on the crowd as well.

 

[1chiban]

^He got pinned in a tag match after an RKO; and Riley lost another tag match. I mean, if you want the occasional clean win, fine... but once again, Triple H went about 3 years without one clean victory... THREE YEARS. And then when Evolution was formed, he went right back to that same formula.

I think people tend to actually amplify this need for Miz to win clean because he's never been established as a clean-win guy against a main-eventer... but in the same sense, it plays perfectly to his MITB victory, and he's scratched and clawed to hold onto the belt so far. Something tells me we'll get those clean victories soon enough, Miz won't be a guy Vince just throws back on the shelf for the rest of his meaningless career... he'll be around for a long time in the main event scene, whether it be to my liking or Kaedon's dismay.

I say just show patience if you can't enjoy it for what it is currently.

Oh, I don't disagree that a good heel champion should have cheap victories as that's a time-tested way of getting heat. However, to be a legit champion, Miz should be able to beat some people clean. I mean, even though Trips had a lot of cheap victories through interference etc. you still thought he could beat a certain level of opponent without help. The need for cheap victories is that the faces they are facing are on their level.

Something I noticed, whenever Miz comes out and he gets this chorus of boo's I can always hear Cole's golf clap for him. But when Vickie comes out, some who has actual heat, you can't hear a fucking thing. If you're going to have a heel champ, THAT's the kind of heat they need to have.

You're right, of course. However, Vickie seems to be the only one getting that aside from Michael Cole who is getting a fair bit of 'get off of my TV' heat which isn't good as it turns into 'I will change channels' heat. I think it very much depends on where they are as well... Miz would start getting that heat if he's given time. While I think he is the perfect whiny character to be beaten by someone like Cena if you want your Mania happy ending, I think it would do so much for Miz if he actually beat Cena at 'Mania - probably via interference or cheating of some kind. (Nomatter how much Miz should be built up to be a little more legit, Cena is way out of Miz's league in the minds of fans so it kind of works backwards here!)

 

[Kaedon]

Nobody is building the brand around him... they're building him around the brand... huge difference

You don't give the title to someone unless you can say "This is the face of my company", unless their a 1 month transitional champ, of which Miz clearly is not.

Rock wasn't ready to be champion when he won it, far more deserving guys. Brock neither.

They were the most over guys in the company when they won. Hell, Brock was more over than most of the card when he was beating up jobbers in dark matches. The crowd saw him and was flat out amazed at what he could do.

Triple H.

Yeah, he'd only had some of the most memorable matches and moments in the WWE up to that point (IE his match with Rock for the IC title in a ladder match and most of his work with DX) totally undeserving.

Rey. Chris Benoit. Eddie. None of these guys were the top face or heel

Rey and Eddie (if he was alive) would/will always be a top face or heel. Rey Mysterio made the CW title relevant for 10 seconds when he was going for it the last time and Eddie was the most over babyface because he knew how to fucking work. He had people in stitches because of his antics. Add to that fact that they, along with Benoit, could work with anyone and make the match *****. Rey Mysterio worked with that unshaved ape Albert and made that piece of garbage look good, he could work with anyone. That's why they were given the title. The stars didnt have to align JUST RIGHT for them to have a great match or for them to get over as is needed with the Miz.

CM Punk. Jericho. Those are HUGE names who most you'd probably argue were great champions and deserved it... but just because they didn't deserve it more than someone else doesn't mean they didn't deserve it. Miz is easily a top 4 heel in the company right now... no reason he can't have the belt.

Top 4 heel means there are 3 heels and 3 (possibly 4) faces who are more over. You don't give the title to the 6th best guy in your company.

Once again, if you prefer to have a decade-long feud between 2-3 guys surrounding the title, how on Earth would you ever build someone else into it? You prove these guys are ready by giving them a shot... let them run with it.

Give them a feud with the champion and see how it gets over, you don't just give someone the title, it DEVALUES IT.

It's what all the guys you say deserve to be champion did with their first, second, third, fourth, or even fifth run as champion.

When Edge, HHH, Taker, Brock, Rock, Austin, etc. won their first title, the were the undisputed number 1 or number 2 in the company. You don't get the biggest title in the world to get over, you get over to get the biggest title in the world.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

You don't give the title to someone unless you can say "This is the face of my company", unless their a 1 month transitional champ, of which Miz clearly is not.

So why has Randy Orton or Edge ever been given the title? Why would you ever argue for them to be champion? There should only be one champion in the WWE right no until the day that he retires by that logic, and that champion is John Cena, because he IS the face of the company... which you can only have 1 of.

They were the most over guys in the company when they won. Hell, Brock was more over than most of the card when he was beating up jobbers in dark matches. The crowd saw him and was flat out amazed at what he could do.

And the crowd has been flat out amazed with the way Miz can make them hate him... Rock was FAR from the most over guy when he won his first title... from Austin, who was 4-5x more popular at that point than The Rock was.

Yeah, he'd only had some of the most memorable matches and moments in the WWE up to that point (IE his match with Rock for the IC title in a ladder match and most of his work with DX) totally undeserving.

Read on where I said, "but just because they didn't deserve it more than someone else doesn't mean they didn't deserve it". And once again, Miz had a memorable match in which he defeated DX...

...btw, Triple H maybe had 2-3 EXCELLENT matches prior to his first title... he got a rub off of his heat with Shawn Michaels when he wanted to take the title and HBK wanted to be the top guy and people saw someone who was in position to hold down arguably the most deserving guy in the company.

Rey and Eddie (if he was alive) would/will always be a top face or heel. Rey Mysterio made the CW title relevant for 10 seconds when he was going for it the last time and Eddie was the most over babyface because he knew how to fucking work. He had people in stitches because of his antics. Add to that fact that they, along with Benoit, could work with anyone and make the match *****. Rey Mysterio worked with that unshaved ape Albert and made that piece of garbage look good, he could work with anyone. That's why they were given the title. The stars didnt have to align JUST RIGHT for them to have a great match or for them to get over as is needed with the Miz.

The only person suggesting Miz is being carried by anyone is you. I saw a match on Raw with Daniel Bryan where Miz actually appeared to carry Bryan. "But he locked in a chinlock and laid still and didn't sell that he was trying to make his opponent tap". Just because a Randy Orton wants to sell a chinlock as a vicious move doesn't mean everyone has to. There are hundreds of wrestlers who applied chinlocks just the same as Miz does... Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, The Rock, CM Punk, Edge... to name a few. It's used more as a move to hold your opponent down while you begin to recuperate a little bit rather than to sell an attempt at making the opponent submit. Okay, good for the guys who use it the way you prefer it to be used... I'd honestly prefer for a standard suplex to be more of a vertical suplex rather than a snap suplex... but I won't bash the hell out of every guy who uses a snap suplex.

Rey and Eddie were the most over with the hispanic fans; Eddie wasn't garnering more heat than a lot of people... he DAMN sure wasn't the top heel or the face of the company... neither was Rey.

Top 4 heel means there are 3 heels and 3 (possibly 4) faces who are more over. You don't give the title to the 6th best guy in your company.

There aren't that many faces close to being as over as Miz. There's John Cena and then there's nobody. You can argue Triple H but he has ONLY just come back. Rey gets love from the hispanic crowds... some from the rest... Miz gets heat from EVERYONE. His heat is universal. The only heel wrestler with more heat than Miz is CM Punk.

Give them a feud with the champion and see how it gets over, you don't just give someone the title, it DEVALUES IT.

As if it has had any value since Benoit held it anyways (and even then, it was already devalued from the constant whoring it had back and forth). Miz is over... he's just not over with YOU. You know how many people sincerely despise having John Cena in the title picture at all? Yet that's the face of the company... he's arguably the most popular guy in the WWE since The Rock. People don't want to see him as champion, but more people do. There are people who hate Miz (not heat-wise, genuinely hate him) and then there are far more people who think he's one of the most incredible heels in the last 5 years, even if he is a slight ripoff of Jericho 2007.

When Edge, HHH, Taker, Brock, Rock, Austin, etc. won their first title, the were the undisputed number 1 or number 2 in the company. You don't get the biggest title in the world to get over, you get over to get the biggest title in the world.

Edge has never been a #1 or #2. He's been a #2 heel possibly, but still behind the top 3 faces and the top heel... ESPECIALLY when he got his first title. When Triple H got his first title, he was nowhere, ABSOLUTELY nowhere near top 5 in the company. Taker's a legend, but his first title run as Taker? You know where he was in the company on a legitimate scale? Behind Hogan, Flair, Piper, Savage, Mr. Perfect, Ted DiBiase, Bret Hart, Ultimate Warrior, Ricky Steamboat... that's WAY under your standards. When Brock got his, he wasn't a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 in the company. Rock was under a few people... he was rising fast (much like Miz) but he wasn't the most over face or heel. Austin was the face of the company at that time... by your logic, why would you take the belt off of the face of your company?

 

[Kaedon]

So why has Randy Orton or Edge ever been given the title? Why would you ever argue for them to be champion? There should only be one champion in the WWE right no until the day that he retires by that logic, and that champion is John Cena, because he IS the face of the company... which you can only have 1 of.

Because there are times the are as over or right there, with John Cena.

And the crowd has been flat out amazed with the way Miz can make them hate him... Rock was FAR from the most over guy when he won his first title... from Austin, who was 4-5x more popular at that point than The Rock was.

Ok, lets say you're right, he was still the number 2 guy, not the number 7 guy like you say Miz is. HUGE difference.

Read on where I said, "but just because they didn't deserve it more than someone else doesn't mean they didn't deserve it". And once again, Miz had a memorable match in which he defeated DX...

Yes, that match will be on DVDs and highlight reels for decades to come, way more than HBK/Razor, HHH/Rock, and every Benoit/Angle match.

...btw, Triple H maybe had 2-3 EXCELLENT matches prior to his first title... he got a rub off of his heat with Shawn Michaels when he wanted to take the title and HBK wanted to be the top guy and people saw someone who was in position to hold down arguably the most deserving guy in the company.

Yeah his heat had nothing to do with the fact that he was feuding with Vince, stole his daughter, and kept DX going strong. It was allllllllllllll HBK....

The only person suggesting Miz is being carried by anyone is you. I saw a match on Raw with Daniel Bryan where Miz actually appeared to carry Bryan. "But he locked in a chinlock and laid still and didn't sell that he was trying to make his opponent tap". Just because a Randy Orton wants to sell a chinlock as a vicious move doesn't mean everyone has to.

Actually, you and a lot of others keep saying "hes improving, hes getting there" etc. Ranny Orton doesn't sell a chinlock "more viciously" he sells it like he's actually trying to take his opponent out, you know, LIKE YOURE SUPPOSED TO.

There are hundreds of wrestlers who applied chinlocks just the same as Miz does... Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, The Rock, CM Punk, Edge... to name a few. It's used more as a move to hold your opponent down while you begin to recuperate a little bit rather than to sell an attempt at making the opponent submit. Okay, good for the guys who use it the way you prefer it to be used... I'd honestly prefer for a standard suplex to be more of a vertical suplex rather than a snap suplex... but I won't bash the hell out of every guy who uses a snap suplex.

Whats the point of a match? Every match? To win. So every move SHOULD be treated as such. When you godbrick it like Miz does, it shows you dont know what the fuck youre doing in the ring and you dont know how to tell a story. Miz doesnt look like hes trying to beat his opponent, he looks like hes going through his script. The good ones, ones who deserve to be champion, know how to make it look good.

Rey and Eddie were the most over with the hispanic fans; Eddie wasn't garnering more heat than a lot of people... he DAMN sure wasn't the top heel or the face of the company... neither was Rey.

Yeah, everyone who was going nuts for him on SD was hispanic. I totally remember all 5 hispanics in Tornoto coming out to see him and carrying him for the whole show.

There aren't that many faces close to being as over as Miz. There's John Cena and then there's nobody. You can argue Triple H but he has ONLY just come back. Rey gets love from the hispanic crowds... some from the rest... Miz gets heat from EVERYONE. His heat is universal. The only heel wrestler with more heat than Miz is CM Punk.

Edge, Cena, HHH, Punk, Kofi, Taker, and Orton, all are more over than Miz. When Orton attacked Punk out of the crowd this week on Raw, you heard the crowd AUDIBLY pop, like they did when HHH came out to interrupt Taker. Why? Because people give a fuck about those two feuds. And people care about Cena and Miz too, but only because Rock is there.

As if it has had any value since Benoit held it anyways (and even then, it was already devalued from the constant whoring it had back and forth).

Using that logic, the title lost value when it was going back and forth to people in the 90s. Oh wait that doesn't fit your narrative....feel free to ignore that little fact.

Miz is over... he's just not over with YOU.

But not as over as 3 other heels (since you said hes the 4th) and not as over as at least three faces. YEAH COME OUT AND SEE THE 4th BEST BAD GUY!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!

You know how many people sincerely despise having John Cena in the title picture at all?

Yep, that's why people react when he comes out as opposed to the semi and sporadic boos the 4th heel in the company gets.

Yet that's the face of the company... he's arguably the most popular guy in the WWE since The Rock. People don't want to see him as champion, but more people do.

But people want to see him. Know how I know? I have ears....

There are people who hate Miz (not heat-wise, genuinely hate him) and then there are far more people who think he's one of the most incredible heels in the last 5 years, even if he is a slight ripoff of Jericho 2007.

People who are so desperate to see something NEW that they will justify any jobber holding the title? Yeah, those people.

Edge has never been a #1 or #2. He's been a #2 heel possibly, but still behind the top 3 faces and the top heel... ESPECIALLY when he got his first title.

Even if I bought your "He was never a number two but me might have been" backwards logic, he still did more to prove he could carry the title transitionally, with his TLC matches, his feuds with Angle, his making garbage angles work, that he could at least hold it for a month. Then he got his title and that was it.

When Triple H got his first title, he was nowhere, ABSOLUTELY nowhere near top 5 in the company.

Austin, Rock aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand?

Taker's a legend, but his first title run as Taker? You know where he was in the company on a legitimate scale? Behind Hogan, Flair, Piper, Savage, Mr. Perfect, Ted DiBiase, Bret Hart, Ultimate Warrior, Ricky Steamboat... that's WAY under your standards.

Thats why the crowd was 60/40 in terms of face heat when he won his first title....Not according to me, to Hogan and Taker. Clearly people were clamoring to see Ricky spit fire instead...

When Brock got his, he wasn't a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 in the company.

Not when he was making the crowd pop Austin style during dark matches against jobbers. He was getting a Goldberg reaction.

Rock was under a few people... he was rising fast (much like Miz) but he wasn't the most over face or heel. Austin was the face of the company at that time... by your logic, why would you take the belt off of the face of your company?

To give it to the number two guy so he can feud with the number three guy while your top guy feuds with someone else to see if THEY can get over and take that number two or one spot.

But no, you're right, lets just give the title to anyone we want to make a star. Hey, Santino is way more over than almost anyone, despite the garbage hes been doing, lets give him the title. Hes not John Cena and he gets a great reaction (which are your only two requirements) Or even better, lets give the title to Kofi. Nevermind the fact he hasn't drawn shit on his own yet, he gets a great reaction and he's not John Cena. Or....oooo...lets give the title to Wade Barrett. He got mad heat as the leader of the Nexus and he's NOT JOHN CENA!!!

Just because it's different doesn't make it good.

 

[Beer Money Army]

this luke flywalker is a clown!!!! who agrees???

 

[monkeystyle]

this luke flywalker is a clown!!!! who agrees???

Probably only you and Kaedon.

The only two people who happen to feel that their subjective dislike of the Miz equates to objective fact.

 

[Italian Outsider]

Don't make me read the whole thread...