Triple H Debate

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^^^Since when the hell did Edge get squashed by HHH????

He got a distraction assisted victory in a match where up until that point, Edge was, typically, countering all HHHs moves.


Also, how exactly do you think Cena blessed HHH with a WM ME spot @ 22.... You don't think the #1 heel in the company would have been in the ME of WM if it wasn't for Cena?

More generally...

I've never undertood the commonly heard "buried Kane, RVD & Booker" claims....

The guy spends his first (and only) spell at the absolute top of the company and ya'll expect WWE to have him lose all his first fueds???? LOL ...Blue.

First, maybe squashed was too strong a word to use with Edge, but he promptly showed up on SD!, got a title match, won, won again and that was that. It was a micro-feud, HHH did nothing to put Edge over in anyway and that was it until Edge returned @ S Series. It was an improper feud, quick and forgetable. It was made apparent Edge wasn't in HHH's league and to me that's somewhat of a burn, maybe not so much a squash.

To say Cena was made by Triple H is asinine. He helped cement Cena's status, but HOW DID HE MAKE HIM?? Seriously. When Cena showed up on Raw the ratings were at the highest they had been since 2002, which means he outdrew HHH, which means HE WAS THE TOP DRAW in the company BEFORE he EVER feuded with HHH. So, being the top draw and going into the main event at WM as CHAMP against the top heel means he wasn't MADE until he beat the top heel? How does that show HHH MADE John Cena?? How can someone be MADE when they ARE ALREADY THE TOP DRAW AND CHAMP before they even feud with the top heel? He was MADE a YEAR before and carried his steam to a top drawing match @WM that got HHH a nice payday. There was absolutely nothing Hunter could do to make Cena an even bigger star. Dude, if you think Hunter made Cena, your wrong. There's a huge difference between CEMENTING AND MAKING. Hogan was already MADE but Andre CEMENTED him. Rocky was ALREADY MADE in 99 but Austin CEMENTED him. Bret Hart MADE Austin. Rock, and Foley MADE HHH, Austin CEMENTED him. Cena was ALREADY MADE, Trips, at best, CEMENTED HIM. You can't honestly say he MADE him. That's just blatantly wrong. Savvy?

About RVD, Kane, and Booker getting squashed, they did. I never said he should have lost those feuds, but each guy was HOT and the E was desperate to fill the void left by Austin and Rock for a new top face yet they were each given a ONE MONTH program and were pinned cleanly and promptly sent down to the midcard. In Booker's case he flat out refused the job. That's a straight burial. RVD would need four years before he got his spot back, Kane would be put through terrible angles and a terrible heel turn to get some longevity out of his gimmick and Booker wanted nothing to do with whatever show HHH was on and it eventually led to another squashing after his first title run that led to him leaving the company. Those are squashes and burials, especially considering he'd run a two month program with Scott Stiener eventhough they got booed out the building @ RR 03.

...Following on, (attn: Enzo) think back to all the Legend Killer matches. How many, aside his match with Foley, left any kind of lasting impression?
Ummm...his series with Taker (which he would have been the one to break Taker's streak had he not had off screen issues reportedly) and his feud with Hogan all stick in my mind.
Again you are confusing "making" and "cementing". All the legends he pinned, his Taker and Hogan feuds and Rated RKO all helped make Randy Orton, Triple H had no bearing on ANY of that. Then Randy made the huge leap when he started feuding with Cena in 07, once it was kayfabed that he put Cena out, he was legit. Triple H came in and cemented it. He hasn't flat out ever put Randy over strong.

And here is the point I originally tried to make, Foley was a much bigger star than Triple H was at that point in his career as compared to how much a bigger star HHH is than Orton is and yet Foley, the way bigger star put HHH over strong, making him in the process. Hunter has done this. For Batista. He has put Randy over, but never strong. And you can argue Randy's character is somewhat chickenshit but he his also heavily booked on a cold, calculating,vicious sociopath that likes to hurt his enemies. A simple, clean win for Randy from HHH could do more for him than this entire 6 month feud could do, especially since HHH has looked stronger and lost the title to Orton in a weak manner. All I was originally saying was HHH has the power to "make" anyone with his rub and he can certainly cement them as he has with Cena and Orton, and he should. He has come a long way from the politicing, burying, asshole he was heavily reputed to be in 2003-2004 but I think at this point in his career he should do what Foley and the others did for him. I mean The Rock was still the Rock and Stone Cold was still Stone Cold after they put HHH strong. He has done everything there is to do and there is nothing that can marginally increase his star, so why not? I'm not advocating he job continuously or to any jabrone, but if there is someone that is legit established, then why not lend your star to them and give them a good strong rub. Tahat's all I was originally stating.
 

CenaMark54

Guest
Triple H didn't make Cena. Cena was the top guy in the company as soon as he turned face, won the title from JBL and moved to Raw.
 

Airfixx

Guest
@ Enzo... Apologies, I'd let the steam go out of our debate (hadn't visited this thread for a while and recently spotted your replies), but just a few points (I certainly won't be offended if you decline to address them this far down the line)....

You can emphasise and type in capitals the difference between "making" and "cementing" at star as many times as you like, but I didn't say HHH MADE Cena. At most I only implied that Cena was 'cemented' by HHH and was otherwise reacting to your saying that HHH had Cena to thank for even having a ME match at WM22 which is utter crap.

HHH/Edge: What can I say, you must have read waaay more into that match than I, cos I certainly didn't see any of the stigma's you mentioned... TBhonest if anything the whole program (what there was of it) just seemed like a teaser for what may come later down the line if they ever DO fued. But, as already stated Edge countered HHH at every turn during their match so you tell me how that's not showing him to be in the same "league"??? Alternatively, lemme ask you this, given all the Vicki stuff and, ahem, 'opportunism' when IS the last time that Edge truly looked like he was in ANY ME-er's "league"... He was effectively going 6 against 1 in his fued with Taker (Vicki, Edgeheads, Chavo & Bam), continually dodged a fair game with Batista and LOST to Jeff Hardy on the only real 'even' playing field he's 'played' on in the last 2 years or so (i.e their ladder match)... He even had Vicki take a 619 for the save against Mysterio FFS!

Legend Killer matches: Granted, I didn't consider the fued with Taker, which (at least in the original match at WM) made randy look like a legit threat, I stand by claim that the only other 'Legend Killer' associated match (as it were) that had any long term resonance was his win over Foley @ Backlash 04. The program with Hogan didn't mean shit to the development of his character or deveoping his credibility on his way to becoming the "Apex Predator-blah", "Viper-blah", "psychotic-blah". Again, look at it from another angle, you think jobbing for Hogan significantly contributed to Orton's rise to where he is today, whilst HHH hasn't played that much of a part??? ...C'moooooon!?!?!?!


02-04 so-called 'Burials': Unfortunately a lot of this theory still revolves around the good 'ol rumour mill surrounding a 'marked' man. Granted Kane deserved better even if not based solely on polopularity and such, but RVD never struck me as being THAT over around the time he faced HHH; in fact it seemed a bit of a stretch to me him being in the WHC hunt to start with. As for Booker.... If that IS true then thank fuck HHH did refuse to job... Him beating HHH at WM19 would have been a total fucking joke.
 

The Rated R CMStar

Guest
I still believe Triple H made John Cena what he is today. He could have been over as shit like you said, but since when does that mean you are "The man". Jeff Hardy has been as over as he is now for a shit load of time, yet only since 2007 he has been a main eventer (ironically after a job from HHH).

You can call it cementing if you want. All I know is that Triple H made John Cena the man he is today. He truly is the franchise man, and with HHH's job, John Cena finally stepped in the eyes of the fans into a whole new league (because I am sorry, but a job from HHH is far more important than JBL's and Y2J's) and everybody finally realized he was indeed WWE's new Austin, new Hogan so to speak.
 

Soulpower

Guest
You know who I've always thought had a hand in making Cena, and doesn't get credit for it?

KURT F'N ANGLE! If Cena had debuted against pretty much anyone else (And put on the match he did that night), he might not have gotten the attention of the fans.

Not to mention all the times Angle did the job to Cena after John moved to RAW.
 

CenaMark54

Guest
You know who I've always thought had a hand in making Cena, and doesn't get credit for it?

KURT F'N ANGLE! If Cena had debuted against pretty much anyone else (And put on the match he did that night), he might not have gotten the attention of the fans.

Not to mention all the times Angle did the job to Cena after John moved to RAW.

The first match definitely helped put Cena on the map.

However, the feud in the summer and fall of 2005 actually hurt Cena. Thats when he first started to get booed.
 

The Rated R CMStar

Guest
I actually credit (and Chris Jericho agrees with me), his feud with Y2J for the beginning of the booing.