Top 5 in ring workers in WWE
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I think Christian's better on the mic than Edge to be honest. Edge was successful when he could get the cheapest of cheap heat as a heel. Him as a face was hit-and-miss, but when it came to comedy he had a great sense of timing. Christian was on another level, he was versatile, could pull a great promo out of anywhere. Whether it be comedy, a serious go-home promo, a maniacal promo, you name it, he's done it. The WWE's neutered his character, that's Christian's only problem. Look at '03-'10 Christian...there you go. In-ring i'd give Edge a slight nod. although they both benefited from working around a bunch of guys that were better than them.
Christian could be marketable, anyone could be marketable. There are too many variables to say he wasn't. Nowadays though, he's older, gave a lot to the biz and his time has come...I'll agree with Qwan that he shouldn't be in a ME role right now, but even then, i'd probably take him over Punk, Orton or Sheamus holding the title.
Christian could be marketable, anyone could be marketable. There are too many variables to say he wasn't. Nowadays though, he's older, gave a lot to the biz and his time has come...I'll agree with Qwan that he shouldn't be in a ME role right now, but even then, i'd probably take him over Punk, Orton or Sheamus holding the title.
I'm not saying Christian is as good as HBK. They and many, many, many other people in WWE history ALL DID THE SAME THING. "Make opponents look good in the ring". Many of them were considered main eventers, not 'enhancement talents'. You missed the point.
I get what you were saying, but I feel HBK was better than that. So is Ziggler and Bryan, who are basically doing the very same thing at the moment. Christian, however, isn't.
This is all my opinion, of course. We're never gonna agree on this subject. I don't think Christian is much more than a career midcarder, you do. I think its best that we agree to disagree at this point. lol...
This is all my opinion, of course. We're never gonna agree on this subject. I don't think Christian is much more than a career midcarder, you do. I think its best that we agree to disagree at this point. lol...
What made Edge so much greater than Christian aside from ring work was his facials. Edge had the best facials of his generation. Holy shit, no one looked more rotten, miserable, vicious, psychotic or manipulative as the guy did. And I think he killed the mic so much more than Christian. As a face, Christian is Jericho-lite and as a heel...I don't know, whiny Jericho lite.
Are you serious? Outside of Angle, Joe and AJ giving Christian some dukes, who was better than Edge in his run? Taker, HBK and Rey are the only people better than Edge and at that, I think Edge was better overall than Taker and on par with Rey and HBK at that time frame, before the final injury that finished his career. After he came back in 2010, he was NEVER the same. But from 06-09 Edge was the go-to guy for the E, like Angle was before him. They could put him anywhere when they needed him with anyone and it was almost always a perfect fit.
That's something people don't realize, go-to guys are so few and far between. You have so very few go-to guys in the industry. In the 80's it was Savage, in the early to mid 90s it was Bret then HBK. Rocky was a go-to guy in the Attitude Era, he wasn't Austin (hate to point this out, but Austin was quite a few levels higher than Rock was in the boom period, but that's another argument for another day) but he really kept the momentum running when Austin was gone for a whole fucking year. Then the brand split happened and Angle became the go-to guy. When he went off the deep end, Edge really became the man as far as the company was concerned.
A go-to guy is what it sounds like, someone the company can go to whenever they need a quick fix, someone who can work with anyone, someone who can be inserted almost anywhere at any time and it seems like a big deal. Workhorses, charismatic, main eventers. Right now the company doesn't have a true go-to guy. It was looking like it was going to be Punk in 2010, but he's a mainstay main eventer. Ziggler is the work horse of the company and has some go-to qualities but just isn't near the level needed to be a true go to guy. Neither is Christian. Sheamus could be a go-to guy, so can the Miz, Orton and especially Daniel Bryan. But right now, there just isn't one. You have three legit main eventers on the active roster in Orton, Punk and Cena. Then many upper carders that can be stop gap main eventers like Kane, Big Show, Rey, Bryan, Jericho and Sheamus. Then TOO MANY mid-upper mid guys that they have floundered with in Del Rio, Ziggler, Miz, Rhodes, Christian, Mark Henry, Santino (don't care what you feel about the guy, he pops louder than Christian and sometimes even Punk and is pretty friggin over for a comedy act) and a few others.
The problem is the E just has such a log jam between the upper mids and upper carders and no clear definition in roles. It's something that really holds down and stunts growth of certain talents. If they can identify this problem and start sticking to long term pushes, they might start making a little more progress and find that go to guy they need and get some more full time main eventers. Why hasn't Ryback clashed with Tensai yet? Why did they stop putting Brodus in programs with regular talent after the Big Show mini- feud? It's silly. It's lazy and it's a REAL problem with their current product.
Edge he sure aint? Right, Christian is much better in the ring than Edge was does his last two years and even on the mic when Christian is allowed to talk, he out shines Edge. The only reason you call Edge is better is because he has more accomplishments. Everyone who is apart of the IWC knows Vince doesn't like Christian and that's just the way it is but accomplishments don't mean fucking shit. You think Cena has the talent to be an 11 time world champion? Fuck no. Triple H got handed 14 world title reigns but he still isn't even the top 10 greatest ever and arguably if he is, it's nothing more than that. I get your point about getting over Henry but that's a whole other argument, this is in ring work and my point was Christian never has a bad match and got something decent from anyone. Only a few fucking guys could do that. HBK, Bret, Owen, Flair, Taker, Bryan, Punk, Christian, Benoit and a few others. He's part of an elite group that Cena and Orton aren't even close to being in.
Again, this is just about you being anti Christian. Those Orton/Christian matches besides the MITB, the SD cage match and their first SD match was close to being perfect. Keep watching their Over The Limit, Capital Punishment and SummerSlam matches until you see it. You hardly see anything that comes close to the flow that those guys got, they work perfectly together and delivered almost perfect matches. Not to mention, they kept this going for what, 5 months? That's incredibly rare to see now.
Forgive me for backing up my arguments that you created. It is supposed to be about in ring WWE work but when you throw in Cena's steak from 2007, it's absurd to ignore Christian's other work. How about his solid matches with Rhino, probably the best match out of Abyss, arguably the best match from Kaz and if not in his top 3 matches and some pretty great matches with Sting and Jarrett? You can't defend Cena with his matches against Rock. You can say most of is Rock's fault and I already said that but you backtracked all around my point. The fact is there is other guys who could have gotten far far more from Rock. That match was fucking horrible.
You mine as well come out now and say you're full of shit and admit you're just anti Christian. If you didn't see most of his ECW work, okay but don't pretend like you have or attempt to make a judgement on his overall in ring work when you missed him fucking CARRYING ECW. He got the only decent match out of Zeke, he gave Tatsu his best match, Dreamer his best WWE match, Ryder arguably his best match, probably gave Swagger his best match, one of Regal's last truly great matches since he had someone to actually really work with, etc.
I know you're a mark for Cena and the biggest HBK mark here so I'm just going to call it you massively overrating their Mania match. It was a flop. No where near a bad match but nothing over 3.5 stars if that, maybe 3. Hence why that had that epic match on RAW because it was a fuck up, they certainly make up for it but don't ever rate it anything more than 3.5 stars again. The Lashley match was also 3 stars and you're overrating that too but everything else I can let slide. It's not like I'll deny he didn't give Umaga his best match, I know Cena has had some great matches. Hell, his rivalry with Edge is one of my favorites but it doesn't defend him from my argument. Most of his matches on RAW were the same shit for years and still leave much to be desired(I'll blame that on booking though) and everyone knows, he can bring it but sadly 9/10 out of 10 he hasn't.
Actually, it's not. If you're going to start comparing their overall in ring work, it matters which is what you did. Christian wasn't even in WWE in 2007 so it's pretty stupid you mention Cena's matches from that year. It's obviously about comparing from when Christian got back to now. Stop overrating, please.
JUSTIN GABRIEL??? SIN CARA??
Ha, you're telling me I'm over rating people? Rick Rude, anyone? TL, DR.
Two things:
You mentioned Christian's TNA run first, your so off base base and contradicting yourself...again.
Actually, it is. This is a WWE thread that YOU created. I brought up Cena's work and you failed to rebuttal with anything Christian has done over a time frame and now you are saying "it's what they'e done lately", basically changing your "rules" to help your arguments. Whatever, pal. It's the same o, same o with you.
And if you think that Michaels match was bad, you really don't know what your talking about, just like when you pegged Swagger and Riley as breakout stars.
Two things:
You mentioned Christian's TNA run first, your so off base base and contradicting yourself...again.
Actually, it is. This is a WWE thread that YOU created. I brought up Cena's work and you failed to rebuttal with anything Christian has done over a time frame and now you are saying "it's what they'e done lately", basically changing your "rules" to help your arguments. Whatever, pal. It's the same o, same o with you.
And if you think that Michaels match was bad, you really don't know what your talking about, just like when you pegged Swagger and Riley as breakout stars.
and exactly who are you a fan of besides Bryan? Weren't you a huge Shelton mark?
You have to be kidding me, pretty much everyone is limited to the same moveset. I'm going to say it one more time, Christian is part of an elite group that never has a bad match. As much as I love Kane and respect Cena when he actually puts in effort, they aren't even close to being that good.
JR hates him? What?
This really is all common sense. It's painfully obvious Christian is restricted A LOT on the mic. He was gold on the mic before he left for TNA, gold on the mic while in TNA and he did the best he could do in ECW, carrying the brand and actually making it enjoyable.
This is exactly why Christian isn't overrated. Not only does he have the talent to be the best but any Christian fans sees it and it's why we praise the fuck out of him. I made a post forever ago summing up everything but anybody who has seen his TNA work or watched him carry ECW, knows he can perform at the top and he's still yet to be used to his potential so wonder why we all keep pushing on letting them give him a shot because has yet to receive it. But I'll disagree about having Cara's best match, that honor easily goes to Hunico who is also very underused. He could be great midcard talent.
I take this as you admitting defeat. You reach so much, it's pathetic. Not once did I call Riley or Swagger breakout stars. First of, how could they be when they are restricted to jobbers. You simply were anti Riley and while I'm not exactly a fan of his he is no where near as bad as you made him out to be and Swagger has the in ring work for him and he's not THAT bad on the mic. He certainly isn't good but I got my entertainment out of some of his promos when he was world champion. Both guys just get misused like 90% of the roster.
I never said that Michaels match was bad but you overrated it and I called you on it. Their Mania match deserves nothing over 3.5 stars, if that. Give all the props you want for the RAW match but don't overrated that match. I fucking wrecked you in our Rude argument, the only worthwhile defense you had was Roberts over Rude. You're on drugs if you think Hennig was better. I'm a huge Hennig mark too but as a heel, Rude was one step above him.
You brought up Cena's work from 2007. Christian wasn't even there that year. You refuse to acknowledge half my points and stick to reaching and overrating to defend your argument. I can't even count how many guys Christian has handed one if not their match ever. Zeke, Swagger, Tatsu, Rhodes(this one I'd probably give to Rey as Cody's best match but Christian certainly has given him one of his best matches to date), Ryder, Cara, Miz, Dreamer, etc.
Quit being a worthless troll or GTFO. Hunico is good in the ring, much to be desired on the mic but he can at least be lower mid card talent. He isn't jobber material, he's the only one who made Cara really look good to date and he deserves much more than to just be a go to guy.
I wouldn't call myself a mark but yeah, I liked Shelton. Still do. He's a phenomenal talent with god-like athleticism. He may not have been all that great on the mic, but he definitely wasn't as awful as some seem to believe. I'd love to see him back on the roster, along with 'Lito and MVP. Not sure why you're bringing him up, though? If its in an effort to somehow make my Christian bashing seem blasphemous then ehh...Shelton and all of his botches entertained me a LOT more than Cap' does, that's for sure. Here's the thing - I was always fine with Shelton's position. Aside from that god awful mama Benjamin angle, I never complained about him being misused or held back. I was perfectly fine with Shelton being a mid-card act. A "Jobber-to-the-Stars"... So yeah, again, not sure why you're bringing him up.
As far as Bryan goes...
First off, I have to throw this out there.. I have like zero interest in the WWE or Wrestling in general outside of Bryan. If not for his current run, I more than likely wouldn't be here to tell you the truth. In fact, if not for Bryan's current run, I DEFINITELY wouldn't be here. I watch RAW specifically for Bryan. I've been skipping Smackdown altogether now that he's isn't a big part of the show, as he's predominately RAW talent now. What can I say, I love the guy :shy:
With that said, I did enjoy watching Mark Henry plow through Smackdown's roster. I was also firmly behind Truth's initial heel run, but in typical WWE fashion, they managed to fuck that one up. Ziggler is also pretty fun to watch, and there's a couple FCW guys I'm really rooting for (Tyler Black, Husky Harris, Brodie Lee)
but at the end of the day, Bryan is my guy. I don't really give a fuck about the rest of these dudes. It is what it is...
I know people who haven't seen him as Mistico and/or don't like lucha hate on Sin Cara, so that's whatever. But what's wrong with Gabriel, Nation? Dude had awesome matches all over the place on NXT, and made people like Rhodes & Slater look like supreme in-ring talents. He's a lot like Kidd, just bigger and with better hair. I like Hunico too to be fair, but i'd put Gabriel in there against anybody in WWE as just a match guy, besides maybe Bryan, who's on a different level pretty much since Dean Malenko retired in terms of pure wrestling ability. I feel where my main man above me's coming from, Bryan really is the king, even on the mic. I think I speak for him when I say i'm more nervous than ever of Bryan getting de-pushed or held back or something. I can't believe they haven't turned him by now when he was so hot earlier in the year.
Hey, I'm just happy he's receiving looks from the higher ups. To say he's exceeded my expectations would be an understatement. I'm gonna stop worrying and enjoy the ride...
It's funny though... Bryan's current run is so accidental. Like, literally everything about it is accidental. His WHC run was the result of an injury, and according to that "former writer," Big Show was supposed to turn heel, not Bryan. Apparently they had to book on the fly because the fans simply weren't getting behind Bryan..something about his delivery being too heelish or some bullshit...whatever...After the 18 seconds debacle at Mania, I knew for sure that it was a wrap for him, but oddly it managed to get him over even more. It's like the little fucker sold his soul to Satan or something. No matter how badly booking sabotages him, he continues to turn it into gold. He was given the persona of a fucking vegan nerd for Christ sake. Cole buried the fuck out of him on a weekly basis. I'm still not sure how he managed to shake that, lol. I'm certain that he could be given Perry Saturn's Moppy schtick and get over with it at this point.