The WrestlingSmarks History Club

[Barry Poppins]

From who's POV or just a general avoid bloodshed one? Bc I think the Selucids or Ptolemys for the next few generations would certainly argue that it worked out great for them that Alexander didn't do that lol

I suppose from a stability point of view. Of course the generals were happy that Alexander didn't do that but I think in a long-term stability way, had he made vassal states of Egypt and the Afghan region, it would have kept money flowing into Macedonia.

I'm imagining a scenario where Alexander made himself de jure Hegemon of those regions while having de facto rulers.

 

[Chris]

It's always felt to me like Alexander really did not care about Macedonia, like even a little bit lol that's just the flag he was born under, so used.

It's never felt like Phillip where he was clearly fighting for Greek approval and acceptance most of his life, Alexander just wanted dominance

 

[Barry Poppins]

Alex wanted glory and prestige, Phillip wanted a unified Greek state that could feasibly rival Persia.

 

[Chris]

Which actually makes Phillip the much more progressive of the two and I subscribe to that 100%

 

[Hosferatu]

 

[Chris]

Growing up in a town named Carthage (named after the town of Carthage, Missouri), you'd have thought I'd have gotten into the Punic Wars a lot sooner lol I didn't even know Carthage was in Africa for the longest time, I just knew they fought with Rome somewhere lol

Its a sad story though bc Rome wiped them and burned their records after the last war, then a generation later people already regretted that they destroyed history. It's only been through archaeological evidence the last 100 years or so that's cause people to keep updating how advanced they think Carthage actually was at time.

 

[Barry Poppins]

Speaking of Rome, you know how crazy it is that the Western Empire was nearly saved entirely if not for Ricimer murdering Majorian in cold blood?

 

[Chris]

Speaking of Rome, you know how crazy it is that the Western Empire was nearly saved entirely if not for Ricimer murdering Majorian in cold blood?

Not at all, I still have some but gaps during the post-republic period of Roman history, so elaborate.

Also a fun podcast i listened to recently was basically debating when the Roman empire actually fell, whether you count the Byzantine as a continuation and why some famous dates given may not be the fall. I was pleasantly surprised that the historians agreed with what I thought was the obvious answer of yes the Byzantine empire is a continuation, Rome does not fall until it completely does.

It's messy and there's definitely reasons why the other dates get named as candidates too, bc it's a unique situation that doesn't really have ant comparisons. I feel like anyone arguing other dates or even the western Roman empire falling being that separate just "want" to that to be true bc they don't like the eastern empire as much lmao I'd also argue it should just be referred to as the eastern Roman empire, that would make most people realize it's not a completely different thing for one

 

[Barry Poppins]

Not at all, I still have some but gaps during the post-republic period of Roman history, so elaborate.

Basically Ricimer was a barbarian general who was extremely powerful in the Roman army, so he installed Majorian as a puppet, but Majorian turned out to be way better than anyone expected. He defeated the Goths and turned them into vassals during his lifetime, and reconquered Gaul and most of Hispania when the extent of his territory was little more than Italy and Dalmatia.

Ricimer became pretty jealous and insecure of his position as kingmaker, so he had Majorian murdered in a conspiracy, then tried to install other puppet emperors, who were ineffective and led to the Goths un-vassalizing, losing Spain and Gaul, and then Ricimer died in 472, leaving the empire weaker than when Majorian came to power.

It's entirely possible had Majorian not been betrayed, that the Western Empire would have lasted longer than it did, possibly even a generation or two longer into the 520s, in Justinian's time.

Also a fun podcast i listened to recently was basically debating when the Roman empire actually fell, whether you count the Byzantine as a continuation and why some famous dates given may not be the fall. I was pleasantly surprised that the historians agreed with what I thought was the obvious answer of yes the Byzantine empire is a continuation, Rome does not fall until it completely does.

It's messy and there's definitely reasons why the other dates get named as candidates too, bc it's a unique situation that doesn't really have ant comparisons. I feel like anyone arguing other dates or even the western Roman empire falling being that separate just "want" to that to be true bc they don't like the eastern empire as much lmao I'd also argue it should just be referred to as the eastern Roman empire, that would make most people realize it's not a completely different thing for one

I think a large reason why Victorians had a problem with calling the ERE the true continuation was because it didn't have "Rome" as its capital for nearly all of its history, which is largely irrelevant when it maintained the Roman culture up until its end, but with a distinctly Greek flavor by the 600s

 

[Chris]

Basically Ricimer was a barbarian general who was extremely powerful in the Roman army, so he installed Majorian as a puppet, but Majorian turned out to be way better than anyone expected. He defeated the Goths and turned them into vassals during his lifetime, and reconquered Gaul and most of Hispania when the extent of his territory was little more than Italy and Dalmatia.

Ricimer became pretty jealous and insecure of his position as kingmaker, so he had Majorian murdered in a conspiracy, then tried to install other puppet emperors, who were ineffective and led to the Goths un-vassalizing, losing Spain and Gaul, and then Ricimer died in 472, leaving the empire weaker than when Majorian came to power.

It's entirely possible had Majorian not been betrayed, that the Western Empire would have lasted longer than it did, possibly even a generation or two longer into the 520s, in Justinian's time.

Oh okay I do know of this a little, just had no name recognition

I think a large reason why Victorians had a problem with calling the ERE the true continuation was because it didn't have "Rome" as its capital for nearly all of its history, which is largely irrelevant when it maintained the Roman culture up until its end, but with a distinctly Greek flavor by the 600s

I think that's why it's so weird to us now too, they're very distinctive cultures, but to me I think it's just human fallacy that we think that means it has to be completely separate. I mean it's basically just that father's axe philosophy question, how many parts do you change before it's not the same axe? I think when it's done so slowly and you can only decide it's a new axe in hindsight way after it's done, then it was actually the same axe still

 

[Chris]

I think you can even debate on if the Holy Roman Empire was a legit continuation or not too, that's just obviously weirder with the Eastern still surviving. They certainly wanted to be a continuation and tried and I would argue perception matters above all else, but I just don't think they quite got there for long enough. Separate thing to me, just copied the name. Dan Carlin once out it like Apple going under and someone buying the IP and using the name but selling washers and dryers instead now lol

 

[Barry Poppins]

Bit of a geographic question, but most agree that Germany is part of Central Europe. Where do you guys think the border between "Central", and "Eastern" Europe is? Is it Poland? Lithuania? Hungary?

 

[Chris]

Poland feels eastern to me but my initial thought was an easy division is the old Catholic/Orthodox boundaries but that's not the easiest I see looking at a map. I'm also pretty sure Poland is Catholic but I don't know that for a fact lol

Central is also just a straight geographic thing for me, I mostly see it as just eastern and western Europe, those are the biggest distinctions

 

[Barry Poppins]

Yeah, Poland is Catholic, and so is Hungary, which is why I think it might be either Lithuania or Ukraine that's the border between East/West

 

[Chris]

Yeah I'd probably just base it on the orthodoxy line (which isn't a good one), the cultures we have nowadays are pretty much based on it