The Russo-Ukrainian War Thread (FKA Political Thread)

[Canadian Dragon]

for example Smark and I had a very long back and forth about a year ago. its just not really the best of time to mention that atm because hamas is literally murdering kids in cold blood

 

[Canadian Dragon]

either way this is a horrible situation and horrible result that will lead to even more deaths so its sad all around.

 

[Jay-Ashley]

Fair, but it was meant more in the sense that no nation like the US has really called it out and has turned the blind eye to it.

 

[Canadian Dragon]

Fair, but it was meant more in the sense that no nation like the US has really called it out and has turned the blind eye to it.

it actually has

U.S. issues rare rebuke of Israel over West Bank settlements

Israel’s ambassador to Washington was asked to come to the State Department on Tuesday, where the U.S. protested changes to Israeli law that would allow new settlement building in the northern West Bank.

www.nbcnews.com

most of the west was extremely critical of the west bank settlement policies and atrocities some of the ISF was committing.

I am no expert though and the situation has some many horrible layers, I genuinely have no clue what the answer is. To complicate things, Nathalyu propped up Hamas since 2012 election as a way he can use them to keep hanging on to power due to never ending tensions. on the hamas side, they also dont want peace, they want martyrs so the can perpetually recruit. so leadership on both sides just want death for power. civilians and the innocent all suffer though. its all very disgusting

 

[CakeWalker]

Last few years I've become more less militant in my views on this situations, but there is no justification I've seen from any source that can even make me consider a thin attempt that that Musical Festival Massacre was justified or ever done for the benefit of the Palestinian people. At this point I'm convinced HAMAS wants as many Palestinians to die, to further their crusade against all Jews. They would sacrifice ever single Palestinian to push their ideology.

 

[Canadian Dragon]

Last few years I've become more less militant in my views on this situations, but there is no justification I've seen from any source that can even make me consider a thin attempt that that Musical Festival Massacre was justified or ever done for the benefit of the Palestinian people. At this point I'm convinced HAMAS wants as many Palestinians to die, to further their crusade against all Jews. They would sacrifice ever single Palestinian to push their ideology.

absolutely correct. There is absolutely zero justification for the mass murder of civilians including women and children in cold blood. And I completely agree with you that Hamas does not care one bit about their fellow Palestinians lives. They want to kill all infidels starting with Jews. Its horrible for the people born in Palestine who know literally nothing different. It also is awful for the people of Israel who have to worry daily a random rocket is gonna fall on their head.

I think a ground force takeover is extreme and akin to the US over-response to 911, but on the flipside I can't say I blame Israel for wanting revenge. It just sucks that once again civilians will die en masse because of it, and not just because of Israel, but because Hamas is also telling people to stay home etc because they want those people to die as martyrs. Its so fucking depressing.

And as an aside, I know it does not mean much, but I am so fucking sorry that Hamas did this to your people. It's fucking disgusting and monstrous.

 

[CakeWalker]

The Crusades are never going to end. I count my blessings that my Mum's family were able to settle in the UK after the War, after being displaced. I offer prayers to both sides, but HAMAS care as much about Palestinian's live as much as the Taliban cared about women's rights or etc etc etc. I won't get into it any further. At this point an extreme amount stupidity on both sides, that seems to be funneled with even more.

 

[CakeWalker]

And playing devil's advocate - because honestly its the best way to see through another lens and also the title of the thread put the thought in my head. If Ukrainian Soldiers paraglided into Russian and starting massacring Russian civilians and taking hostages. No one would say that approach was justified....

 

[Canadian Dragon]

well yeah, there's act of wars and there's acts of terrorism and what Hamas did was clearly the latter. obviously does not warrant revenge war crimes as punishment but that is a seperate discussion

 

[Tig]

people have been complaing about Israels treatment of Palestinians for like a decade plsu so thats not really true. its a multifaceted issue with no good guys

I agree, but with the caveat that the non-militant Palestinians are the good guys and don’t deserve to lose support over the actions of Hamas. The decision to attack in the way they did (massacre of children/women) is completely unacceptable even if that has been done to the people of Palestine for decades. Two wrongs don’t make a right etc. eye for an eye makes the world blind etc.

you are right in your assertion that people have been complaining about Israeli treatment of Palestine for quite a while now, but it hasn’t been overly vocal and hasn’t got anywhere near the attention the Hamas attack did. That said, Hamas absolutely hasn’t got the Palestine interest at heart. If they did, this would have been kept strictly militant. Fuck this women and children lark no matter what the other side has done to the people you are supposedly defending.

My concern is that the narrative (not here, everyone seems reasonably level headed tbf) is being twisted to equate to;

Israel are the good guys
Palestine = Hamas
Loss of support for Palestine
Acceptance of Israeli wipeout and complete takeover of the area

 

[Tig]

well yeah, there's act of wars and there's acts of terrorism and what Hamas did was clearly the latter. obviously does not warrant revenge war crimes as punishment but that is a seperate discussion

I think where I’m failing to come around to your stance is based on how you seem to imply that what Hamas have done is an act of terror and then don’t seem to realise/recognise/say Israel have been committing acts of terror for decades on Palestine. You say you can’t blame Israel for wanting revenge… even though Hamas isn’t fully representative of the people of Palestine… why don’t you say the same for Hamas? As I’ve said I don’t condone these brutal acts on either side but I think it’s a bit narrow-minded to resonate with one side wanting revenge and then not hold the same standard for the other, no? I’m interested to hear if you think the Israeli moves over the last 80 years weren’t acts of terrorism and the reasons why?

 

[Tig]

And playing devil's advocate - because honestly its the best way to see through another lens and also the title of the thread put the thought in my head. If Ukrainian Soldiers paraglided into Russian and starting massacring Russian civilians and taking hostages. No one would say that approach was justified....

Aye, not justified. But, if it was a militant group that had involved itself under the guise of supporting Ukraine (but actually had clear ulterior motives as Hamas does) and its people and they proceeded to do the described above situation - that wouldn’t make it acceptable for the rest of the world to thumbs up a Russian wipeout on Ukraine.

the Russia/Ukraine analogy is actually a good one though, as people seem to find that conflict easier to relate to.

 

[Canadian Dragon]

I don't really feel like I have to constantly placate and express that Isreal also did wrong things, because then it sounds like I am justifying what Hamas did. I refuse to do that. I have been quite vocal in the past about how I feel about Isreals policies, I don't think I really need to say it again and I have been pretty fair here. I don't feel the need to go YA BUT because there is no YA BUT to murdering over 1000 ppl in a single day. Isreal has done many abhorent and fucked up things but there is still levels to this. Irregardless of all that, I am not here to point fingers or take sides. Just because I said I don't blame Israel for feeling revenge doesn't suddenly mean I am supporting their previous actions or excusing their previous actions.

 

[Canadian Dragon]

in fact, I have also already proclaimed I feel that Israel's response is and will be much too severe and extreme, and am also critical of that. Doesn't mean I can't claim to understand how they feel, just like I can certainly understand the depressing mindset of someone born in Palestine. Ive also stated multiple times that the situation is horrible for everyone, so I don't really understand the problem you have with my statements. I think I have been extremely fair, and if you expect me to denounce Israel as much as Hamas, I just will not do that because there's levels to this shit.

 

[Tig]

I have no problems with your statements from a personal pov, I'm simply curious as to why you can denounce Hamas (correctly, as I have already stated) but not denounce Israel in the same vein. I do not know who you are or your previous views on Israel; I am simply asking you a question based on your responses over the last few pages. You claim there are levels to this shit; I agree but would argue the Israelian atrocities are actually worse than the Hamas attack. I just found it curious that you would (again, correctly) state the Hamas attack as an act of terrorism but implicate that the Israeli occupation and genocides were acts of war. Furthermore, I was interested in hearing why you wouldn't blame Israel for taking revenge but had a problem with Hamas doing the same - you have answered that with your opinion that the Hamas atrocity was another level above the Israelian atrocities. I may have misinterpreted your post that spoke of acts of war vs acts of terrorism, but that is the very reason I asked in the first place - to ascertain what you were trying to say. You clarified somewhat in the last line of your post when you said you would not denounce Israel as much as Hamas and I feel confident in knowing what your position is now. If pushed, it is my opinion that Israel has committed worse atrocities than Hamas but that is not the key component of what I am trying to project. (Nor am I trying to say that you are wrong for your POV/nor have I a "problem" with your statement - I thought this was a discussion thread and we were engaging in reasonable discussion. I'm not attempting to attack you/your stances, I'm merely having a discussion with you, and I sincerely apologize if you feel that I have been abrasive or offensive towards you.) To reiterate - my opening sentence was that I don't condone Hamas whatsoever. My point was a general plea to not let the horrendous actions of Hamas become murky waters for the Palestinian people and to not forget where this all started and who the actual oppressors are.

I don't feel you come across as justifying Hamas by noting/reminding why it happened at all in the first place. What Hamas has done is simply not justifiable, of that, there can be no question. We both know that the people who will suffer the most from this are the Palestinian people. I simply feel it is important to not lose sight of that.

Once again, Frakensteiner, I have no problem with your viewpoints (whether we agree on every facet or not is irrelevant) and simply wanted to pursue a discussion. Sorry once again if I offended you in any way, my dude.