Raw 3-28

[Kaedon]

Could have fooled me, because from what I see, the Michael Cole/Jerry Lawler feud has more heat than the Cena/Miz one. Despite what everyone says about him, he's still playing second fiddle to The Rock and John Cena. Unlike, when Tyson was brought into the Stone Cold/HBK feud, Miz (the heel champion) is an after thought. Most people who don't follow the WWE regularly think Cena is fighting the Rock. If you're going to set up a main event, have some fucking play between the champion and the challenger, not the challenger and some guy who pops up once in a while, unless of course, this feud needs that rub because one of them is a weak link...*cough* Miz *cough*

 

[Luke Flywalker]

Okay, for all the hate you have for us comparing The Miz to The Rock (where there is plenty of grounds for comparison), did you just compare The Rock to Mike Tyson!? Seriously!?

Of course neither HBK or Stone Cold were an afterthought to Tyson... but how many people would you seriously believe not to be an afterthought to The Rock? There isn't one, not ONE single person working for the WWE today who could overshadow The Rock... NOT ONE. Not Cena, not Triple H, not Undertaker... NONE of them.

And where the Hell have you been since the announcement of The Rock? Miz has been demolishing Cena for weeks... Cena gets the upperhand once! We KNEW, Vince knew, Rock knew, Cena knew, and Miz knew that the WWE Universe would NOT let The Rock make an appearance or work in this capacity if he weren't going to address the Cena issue.. and all the while you've had Miz reminding the world that he's still the most important man in the company right now, and to not let The Rock fool you into thinking anything is going to come of this, and not to let Cena fool you into thinking The Miz isn't worth the attention a champion deserves.

If The Miz hasn't looked credible as champion to you over the last month (and we can completely discredit my being a fan of The Miz right now), then I've got no clue what you have seen in your life in wrestling that has been accurate.

Kaedon, again, I enjoy debating with you, but you're nuts for still considering The Miz a weak link or afterthought. He may not be as over as Cena and The Rock in the middle of this feud, but if you truly believe he hasn't held his ground and even climbed a few rungs up the ladder... I just... I don't know man. It really feels like you're constantly reaching now.

 

[Kaedon]

Okay, for all the hate you have for us comparing The Miz to The Rock (where there is plenty of grounds for comparison), did you just compare The Rock to Mike Tyson!? Seriously!?

Tyson was/Rock is being interjected into a world title feud, so yeah, they're alike in that way, which is what I meant.

Of course neither HBK or Stone Cold were an afterthought to Tyson... but how many people would you seriously believe not to be an afterthought to The Rock? There isn't one, not ONE single person working for the WWE today who could overshadow The Rock... NOT ONE. Not Cena, not Triple H, not Undertaker... NONE of them.

So the Miz IS an afterthought because it's the Rock but....

Kaedon, again, I enjoy debating with you, but you're nuts for still considering The Miz a weak link or afterthought.

Now he's not? Which is it? Either he's an afterthought or he's not.

And where the Hell have you been since the announcement of The Rock? Miz has been demolishing Cena for weeks... Cena gets the upperhand once!

In a totally unbelievable "Let's push this guy to make people think he's the shit when he's really not" kinda way, yes. All I kept thinking when I'd see Miz flat out dominate someone who is that much bigger, stronger, and faster than he is was "there is no way this happens in reality time after time after time." Have you seen that skinny bitch? I've shit things bigger than him, and unlike Jericho or HBK, Miz CAN'T make up for his lack of size with in ring cred. The only reason he's getting an upper hand on Cena is because Cena is letting him. It looks fake as fuck.

We KNEW, Vince knew, Rock knew, Cena knew, and Miz knew that the WWE Universe would NOT let The Rock make an appearance or work in this capacity if he weren't going to address the Cena issue.. and all the while you've had Miz reminding the world that he's still the most important man in the company right now, and to not let The Rock fool you into thinking anything is going to come of this, and not to let Cena fool you into thinking The Miz isn't worth the attention a champion deserves.

Actually, all Miz has been doing is waving his hand going "HEY, ME, HERE. I'M THE WWE CHAMPION. DON'T FORGET ABOUT ME!!!" because everyone has. Miz is like a little gnat in the way of Cena in his feud with The Rock.

If The Miz hasn't looked credible as champion to you over the last month (and we can completely discredit my being a fan of The Miz right now), then I've got no clue what you have seen in your life in wrestling that has been accurate.

By defending it against an over the hill Jerry Lawler, and looking like a 12 year old who is somehow able to sneak up on a full grown adult for a month straight? Yeah, that says "Centerpiece of a company" to me.

He may not be as over as Cena and The Rock in the middle of this feud, but if you truly believe he hasn't held his ground and even climbed a few rungs up the ladder... I just... I don't know man. It really feels like you're constantly reaching now.

If you're the WWE champion, you don't climb rungs on a ladder, you ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AT THE TOP. If you're still learning on the job and still having to find a way to be more over than someone else or a guy who barely ever shows up, you're not worthy of the title, period.

 

[noumenon]

The entire point of this was for miz to come across as an after thought. Thus him snaking his way in week after week to a completely unfocused cena and taking advantage. Its been addressed that he was being over looked as the young up and coming champion... That was the whole point of the feud.

 

[Kaedon]

Gee, I thought the point of the feud was to have a great feud. COMPLETELY IGNORING the guy who is allegedly the centerpiece of the company is NOT good for business. There is a difference between mixing in a 3rd guy to make a feud more interesting, and completely IGNORING one part of it namely the WWE Champion, the supposed best guy in the company.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

Tyson was/Rock is being interjected into a world title feud, so yeah, they're alike in that way, which is what I meant.

But Tyson was never going to overshadow ANYONE, period.

So the Miz IS an afterthought because it's the Rock but....


Now he's not? Which is it? Either he's an afterthought or he's not.

I said he's not an afterthought in this feud, he's an afterthought to The Rock. Same would be said of Cena, Triple H, Undertaker, HBK...

In a totally unbelievable "Let's push this guy to make people think he's the shit when he's really not" kinda way, yes. All I kept thinking when I'd see Miz flat out dominate someone who is that much bigger, stronger, and faster than he is was "there is no way this happens in reality time after time after time." Have you seen that skinny bitch? I've shit things bigger than him, and unlike Jericho or HBK, Miz CAN'T make up for his lack of size with in ring cred. The only reason he's getting an upper hand on Cena is because Cena is letting him. It looks fake as fuck.

Here you are going back to lack of size (Miz has appeared on the cover of Muscle & Fitness, he's clearly not some skinny schmuck)... the guy is 6'1, 230 lbs.

Lets have a look around, why don't we?

John Cena: 6'2, 250 lbs.
CM Punk: 6'1, 222 lbs.
Chris Jericho: 6'0, 226 lbs.
Randy Orton: 6'4, 245 lbs.
Triple H: 6'4, 255 lbs.
Shawn Michaels: 6'1, 225 lbs.
Rey Mysterio: 5'6, 175 lbs.

As you can see, he's relatively larger than most of the people you insinuate belong above him and look the part of champion and deserve to be champion over The Miz. When I look at Orton, who has 2 inches on Miz but only 15 lbs., going by what you refer to as skinny... Randy Orton is a fucking twig, and should NEVER be believable in kicking someone's ass. But because he's not the muscle-bound gym freak like Cena or Triple H... he's not convincing? Need I remind you CM Punk dominated Cena at times...? Never saw an outburst from you then. Should I also remind you that Rey Mysterio defeated a 7'0, 475 lbs. Big Show via a springboard seated senton? Where was your outburst then?

Actually, all Miz has been doing is waving his hand going "HEY, ME, HERE. I'M THE WWE CHAMPION. DON'T FORGET ABOUT ME!!!" because everyone has. Miz is like a little gnat in the way of Cena in his feud with The Rock.

Yes, because that's the role you're meant to play when the most electrifying entertainer in the history of the WWE shows up and wants to settle an issue which has been the focal point of the WWE fans for years... he gets the upper hand on Cena a few times... he cements his own problem with The Rock... makes sure he stays involved after WrestleMania if he does lose the title... and makes sure he's set himself up as the guy who beat down the Rock and defeated Cena at WM if he does win and moves on to his next feud.

By defending it against an over the hill Jerry Lawler, and looking like a 12 year old who is somehow able to sneak up on a full grown adult for a month straight? Yeah, that says "Centerpiece of a company" to me.

Okay, so he finishes off the feud he had with Lawler 6 days after The Rock returned... then successfully dominated Cena for the next month.

If you're the WWE champion, you don't climb rungs on a ladder, you ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AT THE TOP. If you're still learning on the job and still having to find a way to be more over than someone else or a guy who barely ever shows up, you're not worthy of the title, period.

So who should be champion then? Again, not even Cena is more over than a guy who barely shows up... he's not even 1/10th of that! The only reason Cena's gotten any reaction in the last month louder than anything he's ever gotten before, is because he's legitimately getting a rub off of The Rock.

And how many times do we need to explain this to you? There isn't one wrestler in the world, WWE, TNA, ROH, NJPW, etc.... NOT ONE... who doesn't have a rung left to climb. Shawn Michaels could have elevated more prior to his retirement. Undertaker can still elevate. Can a guy get content in his place for a while? Of course. But just because someone is at the top of the company, doesn't mean they're at the top of their game. The fact that The Rock can come in and get reactions from these crowds which have been unmatched since he left the WWE... is enough to tell you that there isn't one guy in the WWE right now who can settle for the reactions they're getting. The need to figure out how to get to where The Rock, who has been absent for 7 years and is almost a nobody to a lot of the new targeted audience, is at right now, and maybe even beyond that.

The Miz is on... he has room for improvement, as does everyone else... EVERYONE else.

 

[Kaedon]

But Tyson was never going to overshadow ANYONE, period.

Which is why it was smart to bring him in and stupid to bring the Rock in, at least from the aspect of it overshadowing the WWE title.

I said he's not an afterthought in this feud, he's an afterthought to The Rock. Same would be said of Cena, Triple H, Undertaker, HBK...

Cena's far from an afterthought right now...

Here you are going back to lack of size (Miz has appeared on the cover of Muscle & Fitness, he's clearly not some skinny schmuck)... the guy is 6'1, 230 lbs.

Lets have a look around, why don't we?

John Cena: 6'2, 250 lbs.
CM Punk: 6'1, 222 lbs.
Chris Jericho: 6'0, 226 lbs.
Randy Orton: 6'4, 245 lbs.
Triple H: 6'4, 255 lbs.
Shawn Michaels: 6'1, 225 lbs.
Rey Mysterio: 5'6, 175 lbs.

As you can see, he's relatively larger than most of the people you insinuate belong above him and look the part of champion and deserve to be champion over The Miz. When I look at Orton, who has 2 inches on Miz but only 15 lbs., going by what you refer to as skinny... Randy Orton is a fucking twig, and should NEVER be believable in kicking someone's ass. But because he's not the muscle-bound gym freak like Cena or Triple H... he's not convincing? Need I remind you CM Punk dominated Cena at times...? Never saw an outburst from you then. Should I also remind you that Rey Mysterio defeated a 7'0, 475 lbs. Big Show via a springboard seated senton? Where was your outburst then?

The difference between Miz and the rest of those guys is they all have some sort of physical advantage over Cena. Orton is lankier therefore could theoretically strike from a longer distance, and is seemingly a tad quicker.Rey is WAY faster, HHH is stronger (or at least he looks the part, which is what matters), Jericho, Punk, and HBK are "better" (seen as) better than Cena in the ring let alone being as fast (in HBKs case cuz he's old) or a little faster in Punk/Jericho's case.

Now maybe, MAYBE I could buy that Miz is faster than John Cena, but it's negligible. Why? Because he lumbers around the ring like a heavyweight at times. Why? Back to the beginning, HES NOT EXPERIENCED ENOUGH.

Yes, because that's the role you're meant to play when the most electrifying entertainer in the history of the WWE shows up and wants to settle an issue which has been the focal point of the WWE fans for years... he gets the upper hand on Cena a few times... he cements his own problem with The Rock... makes sure he stays involved after WrestleMania if he does lose the title... and makes sure he's set himself up as the guy who beat down the Rock and defeated Cena at WM if he does win and moves on to his next feud.

Once again, this is all a ruse to get Miz over, why? Because he needs it. Cena doesn't need to get over anymore. You said it yourself. Guys, like him and Taker could lose or look dumb or whatever a hundred times and it wouldnt mean DICK. Miz needs to have all these guys put him over because he's not ready.

Okay, so he finishes off the feud he had with Lawler 6 days after The Rock returned... then successfully dominated Cena for the next month.

Once again, what you see as "dominance" I see as contrived angles designed to make us believe the Miz is bigger than he really is. When Ric Flair had the horsemen beat the shit out of his opponents, guess what, Flair OUTCLASSED THEM before any of that shit happened in the ring. Miz can't do that.

So who should be champion then? Again, not even Cena is more over than a guy who barely shows up... he's not even 1/10th of that! The only reason Cena's gotten any reaction in the last month louder than anything he's ever gotten before, is because he's legitimately getting a rub off of The Rock.

And how many times do we need to explain this to you? There isn't one wrestler in the world, WWE, TNA, ROH, NJPW, etc.... NOT ONE... who doesn't have a rung left to climb. Shawn Michaels could have elevated more prior to his retirement. Undertaker can still elevate. Can a guy get content in his place for a while? Of course. But just because someone is at the top of the company, doesn't mean they're at the top of their game. The fact that The Rock can come in and get reactions from these crowds which have been unmatched since he left the WWE... is enough to tell you that there isn't one guy in the WWE right now who can settle for the reactions they're getting. The need to figure out how to get to where The Rock, who has been absent for 7 years and is almost a nobody to a lot of the new targeted audience, is at right now, and maybe even beyond that.

The Miz is on... he has room for improvement, as does everyone else... EVERYONE else.

Miz doesn't have "room for improvement" he NEEDS improvement. He NEEDS the rub from the Rock, he NEEDS to be booked like some unstoppable machine to get over because he doesn't have the look or the skill set in the ring to get it done on his own. Cena, Taker, Punk, Orton, Edge, Big Show, Rey, HHH; all of them, while they could get BETTER do not NEED to improve. Those guys MAKE stars. Miz can't make anyone, he never has and he never will.

 

[noumenon]

First of all if were talking about size... There is no one in the company bigger than cena in terms of muscle mass... The guy is fuckng huge. He probably makes a guy like trips look like a slouch in the gym these days. The fact that you're looking at the size of someone as a legit backing point for a realistic fight is just ridiculous. You can spend as many hours as you want in the gym and it isn't going to mean shit in a fight when it comes to skill. I've seen guys the size of triple h get destroyed by much smaller guys. To say miz is small is ridiculous in itself. Let's see a picture of your incredible physique... The guy is jacked by most peoplkes standards.

 

[Airfixx]

Big ups to ya, Kaedon.... At least you didn't post up a load of bullshit, fake weights and heights like you did when arguing that Miz was too small to be a credible opponent for Cena when they had their mini-fued last year. (Y)

 

[Kaedon]

First of all if were talking about size... There is no one in the company bigger than cena in terms of muscle mass... The guy is fuckng huge. He probably makes a guy like trips look like a slouch in the gym these days. The fact that you're looking at the size of someone as a legit backing point for a realistic fight is just ridiculous. You can spend as many hours as you want in the gym and it isn't going to mean shit in a fight when it comes to skill. I've seen guys the size of triple h get destroyed by much smaller guys. To say miz is small is ridiculous in itself. Let's see a picture of your incredible physique... The guy is jacked by most peoplkes standards.

We aren't seeing them in the gym, we are seeing them on camera. And on camera, HHH and Cena look jacked and Miz looks like Barry Horowitcz. And yeah, a fight IS all about skill, which is why Jericho, Benoit, etc could realistically beat someone because they have SUPERIOR SKILL. Miz has dick for in ring skills even when compared to the likes of John Cena who is "allegedly" the worst in ring WWE Champion since Warrior.

 

[1chiban]

The entire point of this was for miz to come across as an after thought. Thus him snaking his way in week after week to a completely unfocused cena and taking advantage. Its been addressed that he was being over looked as the young up and coming champion... That was the whole point of the feud.

He'll probably win. Cena-Rock doesn't need the title involved if it's ever going to develop into anything.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who thinks Cena is bad in the ring is a fucking tool. Say what you will about his character, but his in ring track record disproves this dumb stigma that dumbass haters placed on him. Rocky, orton, show, punk, miz, batista haven't had runs even close to matching cena's 2007 or have as many good matches as cena has had as champ.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

^Exactly.

Kaedon, Miz's character plays up to (some of) the traits which enrage you... his character clearly doesn't NEED improvement, but when it does improve, chances are it'll be amazing.

Miz's character is supposed to make you feel like he's a joke, he doesn't shy away from his past... but the fact you insist he can't fight :/... it's shameful. You swear he lugs it around the ring but I've seen much of the opposite, and still don't understand how that implies he's a horrible fighter/wrestler. It sells that he's thinking his way through the match, a tactician as they like to call 'em.

You insist he doesn't look or act convincing, because he does a necklock without selling that he's trying to rip the guys head off... I still remind you he uses his submission to regain stamina while still wearing his opponent down. It's basically his version of the "roll out of the ring and regroup" tactic.

You still didn't address the fact that a 5'5 150 (then) lbs. Rey Mysterio was able to effectively use a springboard seated senton to take down Big Show and stay in the senton mount to complete a pinfall... I remind you Big Show has tossed Kane halfway across the ring from a full pin mount. He's thrown Triple H through the middle rope and outside of the ring from a full pin mount. There's absolutely no leverage on Rey's part to pin Big Show, who never should have fallen from the spot in the first place when you consider he's taken shoulder blocks from Batista, Brock, Kane, Taker, Umaga, Viscera, Mark Henry, Bobby Lashley, John Cena......... but somehow Rey is convincing enough to pull something like that off? How does that not make every one of those superstars who unsuccessfully attempted to topple Show look like what you insist The Miz is?

No, the only problem with this logic is your problem with Miz, which isn't about any factual or realistic hate other than perhaps you can't stand the guy's face and don't prefer his brand of anything, whereas everyone else is sold on his abilities thus far and pretty much agree he gets the reactions and has the charisma that you blindly out of your hate argue he doesn't have.

 

[Kaedon]

Kaedon, Miz's character plays up to (some of) the traits which enrage you... his character clearly doesn't NEED improvement, but when it does improve, chances are it'll be amazing.

I disagree

Miz's character is supposed to make you feel like he's a joke, he doesn't shy away from his past... but the fact you insist he can't fight :/... it's shameful. You swear he lugs it around the ring but I've seen much of the opposite, and still don't understand how that implies he's a horrible fighter/wrestler. It sells that he's thinking his way through the match, a tactician as they like to call 'em.

So the fact that he's shit in the ring is a plus? Please. You're making excuses. The only thing he does with any real sense of urgency is his bump and feed so at least he has that right, but the rest of his work is garbage.

You insist he doesn't look or act convincing, because he does a necklock without selling that he's trying to rip the guys head off... I still remind you he uses his submission to regain stamina while still wearing his opponent down. It's basically his version of the "roll out of the ring and regroup" tactic.

Every move is or SHOULD BE done as a means to an end. That end? WINNING. It enrages me to no FUCKING END when young guys, like Miz, like Sheamus, like Thwagger, because they don't know DICK about working a match, act like a chin lock is the time to sit there like a bump on a fucking log. You're in there to tell a story, that story is you're trying to win. Miz looks like he's thinking his way through a match because he is. Guys who actually KNOW how to work, don't.

You still didn't address the fact that a 5'5 150 (then) lbs. Rey Mysterio was able to effectively use a springboard seated senton to take down Big Show and stay in the senton mount to complete a pinfall... I remind you Big Show has tossed Kane halfway across the ring from a full pin mount. He's thrown Triple H through the middle rope and outside of the ring from a full pin mount. There's absolutely no leverage on Rey's part to pin Big Show, who never should have fallen from the spot in the first place when you consider he's taken shoulder blocks from Batista, Brock, Kane, Taker, Umaga, Viscera, Mark Henry, Bobby Lashley, John Cena......... but somehow Rey is convincing enough to pull something like that off? How does that not make every one of those superstars who unsuccessfully attempted to topple Show look like what you insist The Miz is?

I told you, guys like Rey, Punk, Daniel Bryan, Jericho, etc; they all have not only a speed advantage over their larger opponents, they also have a SKILL advantage. Skill is a huge advantage in a fight, and Miz looks like he has none. So he has no skill, he has average speed, and average size. Woooooooooo, lets throw the belt on him!!

No, the only problem with this logic is your problem with Miz, which isn't about any factual or realistic hate other than perhaps you can't stand the guy's face and don't prefer his brand of anything, whereas everyone else is sold on his abilities thus far and pretty much agree he gets the reactions and has the charisma that you blindly out of your hate argue he doesn't have.

I dont prefer his brand of sports entertainment because it's garbage. I'm not saying he gets NO REACTION. Well I am, when it's match time. He especially then gets NO reaction. But when you compare him to the likes of Edge, HHH, Cena, Taker, Rey Rey, CM Punk, Randy Orton, etc. his responses aren't even close, ESPECIALLY between the ropes, where the story is told. You all are just so hard up for something new, you are willing to accept whatever it is, as long as it's "different". Yeah, it's different, if by different you mean a less skilled and less charismatic Chris Jericho.