PWI 500 [2015]

[seabs]

Phenomenal matches Cena put on? Yeah they have a lot of false finishes but that doesn't mean it's a great match. The perception of a great match in the WWE has been lowered to how many times a guy kicks out.

Or maybe because they're well paced, tell a story and flow well? No it must be the false finishes.

 

[Snowman1]

It is also very biased against the WWE. But apparently not against Zack Ryder since there is like 200+ spots between him and the rest of the WWE guys on this list.

Wasn't the original purpose of the list was to rank all the guys in different promotions against one another, like a WWE vs WCW thing?
In "kayfabe" it does make sense to have the top guys in the biggest promotion be ahead of others.

Phenomenal matches Cena put on? Yeah they have a lot of false finishes but that doesn't mean it's a great match. The perception of a great match in the WWE has been lowered to how many times a guy kicks out.

For the kickouts alone, I'd blame more the overuse of finishers to end matches

 

[Roadster]

Wasn't the original purpose of the list was to rank all the guys in different promotions against one another, like a WWE vs WCW thing?
In "kayfabe" it does make sense to have the top guys in the biggest promotion be ahead of others.




For the kickouts alone, I'd blame more the overuse of finishers to end matches

Yeah, I think HBK vs. Undertaker at WrestleMania 25, popularized that as a way to characterize an 'awesome' match feel. No one can replicate anything. There were plenty of in-ring masterpieces in where a guy wouldn't even kick out of a super kick.

Or maybe because they're well paced, tell a story and flow well? No it must be the false finishes.

I never felt any of that during Cena's US Open Challenge deal. Yeah, it was exciting to see who was gonna be next, and it did do a lot for the US Championship, but none of them really stood out as a phenomenal match.

 

[Jacob Fox]

Phenomenal matches Cena put on? Yeah they have a lot of false finishes but that doesn't mean it's a great match. The perception of a great match in the WWE has been lowered to how many times a guy kicks out.

Kicking out of finishers has nothing to do with why I liked his matches. I pretty much assume nowadays that this is par for the course in title matches.

Also the kicking out of finishers trend actually began in the Attitude Era in the Rock vs Steve Austin matches. It was rather common in the AE l, died down for a bit and came back.

What I've liked about Cena's matches since winning the open challenge has been the pacing of the matches and quality of the opponents. I couldn't care less about kicking out of finishers.

Now the reason a lot of this works is also comparison. The majority of matches on Raw have been slow and unentertaining completely routine matches. Cena's haven't been for the most part.

I'm not someone who is going to give John Cena underserved praise and I'm never happy having to compliment the guy. But ever since he's been out of the world title picture, his matches have been better. He doesn't spend the entire match on the defensive, he hasn't been completely burying his opponents to the degree he has throughout his career and his matches haven't been slow dragging crap like the majority WWE has been putting out. I'm also the first to credit his opponents over him, but I grudgingly have to give him credit too.

So no, kicking out of finishers has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of his matches. I'm a wrestling traditionalist, as I'm sure everyone is aware. A finisher is a finisher and I do not under any certain terms support degrading the effectiveness of finishers in the way proposed.

 

[Jacob Fox]

I never felt any of that during Cena's US Open Challenge deal. Yeah, it was exciting to see who was gonna be next, and it did do a lot for the US Championship, but none of them really stood out as a phenomenal match.

It's fine that you didn't feel that. We obviously did though.

 

[Jacob Fox]

Wasn't the original purpose of the list was to rank all the guys in different promotions against one another, like a WWE vs WCW thing?

I don't believe so. Usually a couple months before the 500, PWI would always come out with a WWF vs WCW issue. They still do it as WWE vs ROH vs TNA.

PWI is known for their year end awards more than anything else. Of course since it's a reader poll, the editors and writers have absolutely zero input on who wins. The PWI 500, I believe, was created for the editors to be able t express their opinions on what was the best. In the early issues there really wasn't any WWF vs WCW talk in it.

 

[Snowman1]

Hold on a minute, I just realized something...

"94: "R-Truth" Ron Killings
95: Pentagon Jr."

1:

 

[Roadster]

Yeah I'd prefer it if you didn't assume that is what I liked about the matches. It wasn't. I pretty much assume nowadays that this is par for the course in title matches. I've never been shy about why I like or dislike something.

What I've liked about Cena's matches since winning the open challenge has been the pacing of the matches and quality of the opponents. I couldn't care less about kicking out of finishers.

Now the reason a lot of this works is also comparison. The majority of matches on Raw have been slow and unentertaining completely routine matches. Cena's haven't been for the most part.

I'm not someone who is going to give John Cena underserved praise and I'm never happy having to compliment the guy. But ever since he's been out of the world title picture, his matches have been better. He doesn't spend the entire match on the defensive, he hasn't been completely burying his opponents to the degree he has throughout his career and his matches haven't been slow dragging crap like the majority WWE has been putting out. I'm also the first to credit his opponents over him, but I grudgingly have to give him credit too.

So no, kicking out of finishers has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of his matches. I'm a wrestling traditionalist, as I'm sure everyone is aware. A finisher is a finisher and I do not under any certain terms support degrading the effectiveness of finishers in the way proposed.

I'm not saying they weren't good, I'm just saying they aren't as good as many people have said they've been. And me saying people like them because of the many false finishes, wasn't exactly directed at you. but more so towards the people who fine that to be the defining factor in a good match. Hell I was apart of that group, and sometimes it makes me mark when it happens.

 

[Jacob Fox]

I'm not saying they weren't good, I'm just saying they aren't as good as many people have said they've been. And me saying people like them because of the many false finishes, wasn't exactly directed at you. but more so towards the people who fine that to be the defining factor in a good match. Hell I was apart of that group, and sometimes it makes me mark when it happens.

If you said they weren't good, I'd accept that. It's completely subjective and I wasn't telling you they were good. I'm simply pointing out that what I liked about them had nothing to do with the finisher kickouts.

 

[Jacob Fox]

I'm not saying they weren't good, I'm just saying they aren't as good as many people have said they've been. And me saying people like them because of the many false finishes, wasn't exactly directed at you. but more so towards the people who fine that to be the defining factor in a good match. Hell I was apart of that group, and sometimes it makes me mark when it happens.

Yeah I know you didn't mean it all at me. I've tried editing the post about 6 times to convey that better. I just really seem to be sucking at expressing myself today.

 

[Bort]

People say they don't care for PWI and consider it a joke (which it is), and yet they spend so much time arguing about it. Mark psychology is fascinating.
:henry2:

 

[Jacob Fox]

People say they don't care for PWI and consider it a joke (which it is), and yet they spend so much time arguing about it. Mark psychology is fascinating.
:henry2:

That's not too unusual psychologically. People tend to spend more time arguing over why they don't like things than why they do like other things. I think it's because people tend to disagree with each other more about why they dislike certain things than they disagree about why they like things.

 

[Snowman1]

Yeah, I think HBK vs. Undertaker at WrestleMania 25, popularized that as a way to characterize an 'awesome' match feel. No one can replicate anything. There were plenty of in-ring masterpieces in where a guy wouldn't even kick out of a super kick.

I never felt any of that during Cena's US Open Challenge deal. Yeah, it was exciting to see who was gonna be next, and it did do a lot for the US Championship, but none of them really stood out as a phenomenal match.

If you remember Wrestlemania 3, much of the magic of Savage vs Steamboat was that series of rollups the crowd went CRAZY for since any of those could win a match. Unless a WWE match is a real emotional barn-burner you're completely invested in, it's hard to buy near-falls since every match has to end with a finisher... that's why false-finishes are considered the best way to create drama, but on the good side it's also why finishes are so over. Other than that, I'm not sure what the wrestlers themselves can do nowadays to replicate that kind of drama... not that it really worked in this case.

With the Cena matches, they were fun. Cena did a great job calling the match and making sure all the opponent's stuff looks good.

 

[Prince Bálor]

Hold on a minute, I just realized something...

"94: "R-Truth" Ron Killings
95: Pentagon Jr."

1:

 

[Wacokid27]

Owens should have been number 1,2 and 3.

Is this a fat joke?

BTW, let's talk about things we like. I like boobs.

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