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Huh? No mention of how similar the Lebron thing is to Hogan joining the NWO?

Also, this!

[yt]PNVyvrgqVi8[/yt]

[yt]2vULqQuvywA[/yt]
 

sharkboy 3:16

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CMS, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have every seen you post.

Sure, winning rings means you've been apart of a great team but if you haven't won a ring it doesn't mean you aren't that good of a player. That's like saying Derek Fisher is a better player then Lebron James because he's won many rings and Lebron hasn't, even though Fisher doesn't really do anything to win the rings and Lebron carries a team to the finals.
 

CMS

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Yes, it means you're not that good of a player. It doesn't mean you aren't a good player, but we're talking about LeBron James. When people make an argument about LeBron, they don't make it about him being just good, which I will agree he is, but they make it about him being one of the bests.

And by the way, winning championships does affect you on the long run. Should LeBron retire without winning anything, I am 100% sure people will talk more about DFisher, the man part of a team winning 5 championships, than him. Hell, how many times you hear the name "Karl Malone" nowadays? Who do you hear more about, Gary Payton or John Stockton? Who you think people will remember the most in a couple of years, Pau Gasol or Dwight Howard?

Sure, LeBron is good, and he could put some sick numbers. But then again, I have seen guys like Gilbert Arenas, MRedd, god damn Charlie Villanueva put some sick numbers on some seasons. Matter of fact, those guys are not there to put some good stats, they are there to win championships, and since LeBron has failed to do so, he's not as good as he's billed.
 

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And btw, lol at Derek Fisher not doing anything to win championships. The guy's career basically consists of him hitting daggers near the end of games at playoffs. He's responsible for cooling down Ray Allen after his incredible record making performance and he's the soul of the Lakers.
 

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I know what you're saying CMS but some of it is some bullshit.

I am 100% sure people will talk more about DFisher, the man part of a team winning 5 championships, than him.

People will remember LeBron James if he doesn't win a championship in his career. Look at the way he's been marketed since entering the league, he has his own shoe, been in numerous commercials and brought a garbage team to the playoffs. Plus he's a two time MVP. If anything LBJ will be known as one of many great NBA stars that has never gotten a ring. Like Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing and most likely Steve Nash. But don't tell me we won't remember LeBron James, that's bullshit.
 

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No, I am not saying we won't remember him. Like you said, we will mention him in the group of guys to never win the championship. Hell, he might become some running gag amongst sports columnists about guys given all the marketing in the world and failing to win the "Big One"

What I am saying is that years from now, we will talk of guys with championship rings before we talk about LeBron.
 
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Nobody in their right minds will care about Bobs Horry and DFish (combined 12 rings) more than LBJ. And it's just stupid to argue otherwise. The only multiple ring winners that will be remembered over the LBJs, Malones, Barkleys and Ewings are the guys of that same caliber; the motherfucking Hall of Famers. The Jordans, Russells, Birds, Magics and Duncans of the game.

No matter what anyone thinks, LeBron has ALREADY punched his ticket into the HoF and it's not even debatable. Fastest and youngest to 15,000 points by 2 years, 2 time MVP, gold medal, 2x All Star MVP, 4 time First All NBA team, Rookie of the Year and 6x All Star. He could die today and he's in the HoF tomorrow, ringless. He is the best all around basketball player since Oscar Robertson. He does it all and is a triple double threat every game. I seriously wouldn't be surprised if LBJ gets a third straight MVP if he averages a triple double next season and that seems incredibly likely since he won't have to score as much but will be call upon to distribute and rebound more. In all seriousness if he traded places with Kobe the past three seasons, the Lakers with LeBron would have and could have challenged the 96 Bulls for Greatest Team of All Time. Kobe is a little over rated, people seem to forget how mediocre the Lakers were without Shaq or Gasol and Kobe didn't even make the playoffs without the greatest coach ever, Phil Jackson. LBJ NEVER had any of what Kobe had. His best big man was a fading Big Z and a way washed up Shaq and his best sidekicks were a washed up Larry Hughes, Mo Willams or an old Antwan Jamison. So he said fuck it ,instead of looking for one right guy, I found two right guys. He doesn't care how he's perceived, he knows he's already in the HoF, now he just wants his time to dominate the league and if he wants an easier path after 7 years of busting his ass with marginal teammates, who is anyone to blame him?

And if anything, don't EVER compare Derek Fisher to LBJ, that is incredibly offensive to anyone who unbiasedly loves the game.
 

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Who is anyone to blame him? As far as I'm concerned, a Michael Jordan, a Kobe Bryant, a truly all time great would be looking forward to kicking Dwayne Wade's ass and Chris Bosh's ass each season and prove how he's better, not team up with them. To me, LeBron just showed he just doesn't have it in him
 

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And yes I will compare Derek Fisher with LeBron James. Like I have said before, LeBron can be all the great player he could be, and like you said, he's already a shoe in to the Hall of Fame...do you think he cares about that? Do you think he really cares about how in 20 years from now he will be voted in into the HOF, long after he has stopped throwing baskets? No. He cares about winning championships, and so far, he has not. That's the bottomline. All the other accomplishments, yeah, they make for a nice couple of accomplishments, but you would be foolish to think LeBron wouldn't change that for one single ring. In fact, he just changed his entire home and the spotlight solely on him for the chance at getting one.

In all the rambling the Cavs owner said in that now infamous letter, he was right on something. LeBron is a quitter. He just quits on the Playoffs. So yeah, keep all those numbers on LeBron and keep all those HOF entrees (btw, Derek Fisher will also be HOFer), because when the time calls for a player to be great, LeBron dissapears. For crying out loud, the entire Cavs team showed their character against the Celtics in that last game when they didnt even get themselves to keep defending when the game was all settled. That spoke volumes about their character, and specially about LeBron's, when 20 seconds where still on the clock and he was already wishing good luck to the Celtics instead of you know, showing some spirit and lose with his head up high. D-Fisher on the other hand, he builds his career out of creating moments at the playoffs.

Now, don't get me wrong, because it seems to me you're doing it. At any point am I saying Fisher is a better player than LeBron, nor I'm saying LeBron is a bad basketball player nor I'm saying LeBron after his retirement will just fade into oblivion. All I'm saying is until LeBron wins a ring, he's not as good as he's billed. As simple as that. Basketball players are in the game to win rings, and until he actually does it, he cannot and should not be considered the best.
 
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And yes I will compare Derek Fisher with LeBron James. Like I have said before, LeBron can be all the great player he could be, and like you said, he's already a shoe in to the Hall of Fame...do you think he cares about that? Do you think he really cares about how in 20 years from now he will be voted in into the HOF, long after he has stopped throwing baskets? No. He cares about winning championships, and so far, he has not. That's the bottomline. All the other accomplishments, yeah, they make for a nice couple of accomplishments, but you would be foolish to think LeBron wouldn't change that for one single ring. In fact, he just changed his entire home and the spotlight solely on him for the chance at getting one.

In all the rambling the Cavs owner said in that now infamous letter, he was right on something. LeBron is a quitter. He just quits on the Playoffs. So yeah, keep all those numbers on LeBron and keep all those HOF entrees (btw, Derek Fisher will also be HOFer), because when the time calls for a player to be great, LeBron dissapears. For crying out loud, the entire Cavs team showed their character against the Celtics in that last game when they didnt even get themselves to keep defending when the game was all settled. That spoke volumes about their character, and specially about LeBron's, when 20 seconds where still on the clock and he was already wishing good luck to the Celtics instead of you know, showing some spirit and lose with his head up high. D-Fisher on the other hand, he builds his career out of creating moments at the playoffs.

Now, don't get me wrong, because it seems to me you're doing it. At any point am I saying Fisher is a better player than LeBron, nor I'm saying LeBron is a bad basketball player nor I'm saying LeBron after his retirement will just fade into oblivion. All I'm saying is until LeBron wins a ring, he's not as good as he's billed. As simple as that. Basketball players are in the game to win rings, and until he actually does it, he cannot and should not be considered the best.

Ah man. I respect the fact that you're sticking to your arguments. But seriously, D-Fish is NOT going to the Hall of Fame no matter how much you want to believe that. Sorry, being a career role player who hit three nice shots in his playoff career doesn't merit any consideration. Robbert Horry hit many, many more big shots for 3 different teams and had a bigger role than Fish did on the first three peat Lakers and has 7 rings and he's not going to the Hall, ever. Fish was just in the right place at the right time for the ".4" shot against the Spurs and had one great shot this past Finals. Two shots isn't getting into the Hall and that's just absurd to believe that just to try and thicken your arguments. Robert Horry hit six game clinchers for the Lakers, two for the Spurs and hit three sick baskets that sank the Knicks and Magic when he was in Houston and he's not even going to be nominated and his post season heroics KILL Fisher's all day any day. And that's not opinion, that's just straight fact.

So basically what you're saying is that Fish has had a much more fulfilling career for being a role player because he hit two big shots in his career and has six rings and is deserving to be in the HoF because he rode Kobe's and Shaq's coat tails to 5 titles. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. LBJ is 25, Jordan was 29 when he won his first title, Kobe was 30 when he won one on his own (i.e not being carried by Shaq and yes, he was carried.) and everyone said the exact same things about those guys that they are saying about LBJ until they won a title. They called Kobe and Jordan "bad teammates", "pompous", and "all flash, no desire" and look how they are remembered. LeBron has plenty of time, at the very least 10 years, and probably the capability to be a 20 ppg scorer at 40. He will win championships, he has time, talent and desire. I don't care what the Cav's owner said, he's just talking out his ass because of the butt hurt. LeBron averaged 30, 8 and 7 the last two years in the playoffs, how the fuck does that constitute "quitting". It's not his fault his team mates couldn't hit open shots and that Shaq can't defend pick and rolls and Antwan Jamison got bullied in the post. It's bullshit and/or an obvious ignorance of LeBron's play in the post season to say he quit. He's never been given the tools on his squad that Jordan or Kobe were given . He was never given his Pippen or Gasol or an army of sharp shooters to kick out to. And now, after seven years, he decided he'd rather be a cog in a machine that could go and do something that hasn't been done since Bill Russell and Bob Cousy hooked up, win more than 3 consecutive titles. If that happens, then what? People, like you, will still hate. But it doesn't matter, all those that spent years hating Jordan were humbled, as were the Kobe naysayers.

Like I said, I respect you for sticking to your guns, but don't try and insult my intelligence by insisting that Fisher is going to the HoF, because he is most certainly not. I don't know if you truly believe that or you were just trying to substantiate your arguments. But Fish and LeBron aren't comparable. One's a bonafide star, the other is a role player who hit two shots. It doesn't matter how many rings he has, his career pales in comparison to LBJ. LBJ just needs one ring to cement his legacy, but he has put himself in a position to win as many, maybe even more than Kobe and Jordan. And by your logic, the role players on those Celtic teams that won 8 titles in a row belong there and they don't. Robbert Horry belongs way before Fish and he's not going in this lifetime.
 

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And btw, lol at Derek Fisher not doing anything to win championships. The guy's career basically consists of him hitting daggers near the end of games at playoffs. He's responsible for cooling down Ray Allen after his incredible record making performance and he's the soul of the Lakers.

rofl!

I don't know how anyobdy could compare Fisher to LeBron, seriously. Btw, I think Fisher turned down the offer by the Heat (thank god) and he's staying with the Lakers, he'll have to share minutes with Blake.

Anybody been keeping up with the Summer League? Wall has been alright, he's been scoring well and getting some nice assists but he averages around 8 turnovers a game which isn't good.
 

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King Lennie, you just don't seem to understand. Nobody is directly comparing Fisher to LeBron because of you had read my previous posts, you would know that I have already said LeBron is the better player in general. The little thing you quoted me on, I stand by. You're making it seem as if Fisher was just a guy standing in the court while The Lakers where doing their thing in the finals, while he clearly wasn't. He played an important role in the series. No, maybe not as big as Kobe's, Gasol's or Artest's in Game 7, but he was damn sure important, and I am completely sure the Lakers wouldn't have done it without him, maybe they wouldn't miss his overall in game, but his presence. Damn, see how good the lakers did with Smush Parker and Chucky Atkins as their PGs.


As for Enzo, yeah, I believe Fisher will one day go into the Hall of Fame. Maybe the balloters will get him in out of his accomplishments alone, or maybe politics will come into play and they'll do some kind of combo with Kobe Bryant, but for whatever reason, Fisher will enter the HOF.

Secondly, comparing him with Robert Horry. I didn't mean buzzer beaters when I'm talking about Fisher's big shots. He has a thing for hitting 3 pointers in the right time, not buzzer beaters, but lacking 1 minute, a minute and half and his shot usually serves as the gateway for Laker's comeback. Or he'll make the shot that cools down the other team. Besides, comparing Horry with Fisher is just silly. Horry might have hit more buzzer beaters, but like I said, that was not what I was talking about, besides Fisher's role in the Laker's is more of the veteran, the glue that keeps the team together, and the only one that can influence Kobe Bryant.


However, and I will say it again, this discussion has become into a comparison between Fisher and LeBron, which just like the Horry-Fisher comparison, is silly. I don't think at any point I have said Fisher is a better all around player than LeBron. Fisher's name just came as an example for the "guys with rings" department when comparing with LeBron.


I just think that to mention LeBron in the "best player today" or even worse, "best player ever" argument, until he actually wins a championship, is just plain wrong, should he win one, sure, build all the case you want, but until he does, he damn sure cant be on that discussion.

And now, even if he does, of course it will be frown upon. I might be talking off my ass here, but I am damn sure LeBron James in his mind wants to be considered, when it is all set and done, a better player than Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. And sure, like I have more than so widely said, winning a championship ring is vital in doing so, but c'mon, you can't just ignore the circunstances in which he might do so. Michael Jordan didn't want to team with Larry Bird. He wanted to beat his ass. Kobe damn sure didn't want to be Paul Pierce's or KG's teammate, he wanted to beat their ass. They are stars. They should want the spotlights for themselves. We could say LeBron is not like that, that he's humble and he only wants to play the game, but the self proclaimed King is everything but humble, so we know that's not the case. What LeBron did is said he was tired of carrying the spotlight by himself. Should he want some help? Sure, go ahead, ask for the Cavs for more pieces. Kobe asked and got Gasol. MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Damn right. But dont quit on your team in the most coward of ways and leave to play with the guy who should be your archrival and so gladly say you will share the spotlight.

A star should crave the spotlight and should crave competition. Damn, look at Shaq and Kobe, they craved for spotlight so much one of them had to leave the team. I'll say it once and I'll say it again, LeBron just showed he will never be what he so deeply wants to be. Forget the numbers, most of the fans dont give a damn or don't even know about the numbers. If that was the case, Wilt Chamberlain would be leagues ahead of MJ in general image with the audience. But no. We consider Michael Jordan the best player ever. Is it because of his stats? No, it's because of his general aura. And right now, LeBron will be seen as the guy who went to Dwane Wade's team.
 
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CMS, numbers do matter. Especially in the Hall of Fame. And people do know numbers. Everyone knows Hank Aarons HR numbers, everyone knows about Jordan dropping 63 on the Celts in the playoffs, DiMaggio's 56 game hit steak, Wilt's 100 points, Kareems 38,000+ points, Brady's 50 tds and so on and so on. Numbers punch your ticket to the Hall, not the number of rings you have, unless you have the numbers to back that up. Fish was just a nice role player on some really good Lakers teams. Sorry, but a career 9 ppg scorer and sub passer is NOT getting him into the Hall even if he had 10 rings. It doesn't matter how you see it, everyone in the Hall has been voted in on those exact premises; by numbers and personal accomplishments, not by team accomplishments, that's what the ring stands for. He was a cog in the machine and his reward was a championship, which speaks about he the teammate, not he the player. It's just a joke to think Fisher is Hall worthy. He's not and there is nothing outside your thinly veiled "5 rings" argument. His reward are his rings, he doesn't deserve or belong with the immortals of the game for being a role player and he never will be, because there, numbers DO matter.
 

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