Mini No Smark Zone: ROH Keys to Success

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Kaedon

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Welcome to a mini edition of the No Smark Zone. As I was writing this I was trying to figure out if I would put it out in next weeks NSZ or do this. I decided to go with a mini one because I am really proud of this. Now I don’t want to come out here and toot my own horn but TOOT…..TOOT. No, really I loved writing this because it came out so fluidly and I hope you all enjoy it.

Thank you to everyone who participates in my NSZ interactive thread in HIAT. Part of it is laziness on my part and part of it is just plain not knowing what you all want me to talk about, and that’s why I made that. The first thing im gonna tackle is something Soulpower raised, and that is what do I think ROH needs to do to become competitive. He also wanted me to dissect them but Im not going to do that. Sorry SP and everyone else. I have seen them but I haven’t seen them enough to give a thorough analysis other than some general things I notice about the fed. I will get to those later.

The first thing ROH needs to decide is what they want to do. Do they want to maximize their profit? Or do they want to stay true to their hardcore fan base? Because those are the two choices you have in most forms of art, and make no mistake, that’s what wrestling is, an art form. Its happened countless times in music, literature, TV, movies, and everywhere in between. The people making the art have to choose, popularity, or artistic integrity. And generally, not all the time but 99% of it, you have to compromise one for the other. If Ring Of Honor does this, compromises at least some of what makes it what it is now, I believe they would have a shot at going national and keeping fans. But they have a lot they’d need to do, a lot of which would piss off the hardcore smark fans.

The first think I believe they’d need to do is change the way they execute their matches. ROH has one thing that I think is at the core of wrestling, always has to be, and always will be. And that is that the payoff has to be in the ring. I can tell they believe that. The wrestlers and bookers in ROH believe that everything has to end, and a lot of times begin, in the ring. This couldn’t be anymore right. And a prime example is this bullshit feud with Kane and Rey Mysterio. Its not that I don’t want to see them go at it, because I am a big fan of both of their ring work, characters, and I think they can work well together. But it didn’t start in the ring and it very easily COULD have, which would have made a hell of a lot more sense than a phantom parking lot beat down. But back to ROH, they do this really well. They leave it all in the ring, from what I can tell. And that has an appeal. One of the biggest complaints I hear is that the WWE and TNA have too many run ins and there isnt a sense of finality. That is something ROH can exploit to show that they are different from the two other companies. What I think they need to change, however, is their perception of what wrestling is. Most of you know that I have this limited window of experience with ROH having only seen a handful of matches. But from what I can tell, and correct me if I’m wrong, the people who write this stuff, and even the wrestlers themselves, are under the impression that this is some kind of real athletic competition. Hey, guess what folks, IT’S A WORK! There are no record books, no ones judging you on points, and the winner is predetermined. They all know this, but pretty much everything in every match is geared towards the athletics of it. Don’t get me wrong, there is most certainly an athletic component to wrestling, but I get the sneaking suspicion that most of the ROH wrestlers, workers, and fans believe that is the end all and it is not.

And that, I believe, is what ROH needs to change. They don’t have to take away all of it, but what needs to be understood is what happens in the matches is the meat of it all. And they meat of it all cant be “look at the cool moves I can do†be it ground, power, technical, or high flying, the moves are inconsequential. Now I can hear some of you (Montana) say that it is just a stylistic thing. While this is true, that is a “style†that doesn’t mean it cant be good or bad, or in the case of ROH trying to go big, being able to draw and not being able to draw. And this gets into the whole argument of what draws. There is one tried and true thing that draws, connection to the fans. Be it on an emotional or physical one. Physically, almost no one can identify with what happens in a wrestling ring, let alone an ROH one. How many of us can say we performed or received a 720 splash? Or even more basic, a body slam? When’s the last time you just happened to pick someone up and slam them, if even in a fight? The things in TV, movies, literature, music, and all other art forms that DO draw, are the ones that connect. People can connect with football because most everyone has played it in some form or another.

And that leads me into the other huge thing that keeps ROH from breaking through, their lack of characters. Since you can not connect physically with these people, you have to do it emotionally. Why do people watch House? Because everybody knows a cranky sarcastic bastard like him and can identify with it. American Idol, I think on some level, at some point, EVERYONE, unless youre not into music, has thought about getting into a band or singing, or has done one or the other. And that’s why those shows, and shows like those get such high ratings, an emotional connection. I don’t think you can get that in ROH because they really don’t have many characters you can really get in there and connect with. CM Punk had a very identifiable gimmick in ROH when he was a heel. He was a guy who thought he was better than you because he was sXe and you weren’t. You’re a fucking loser who drank, did drugs, and all that. And that is why people like him stood out, and eventually got a shot in the WWE. It wasn’t just because he was “a great worker†in the eyes of smarks. Yeah, he can do a shit ton of moves, and yeah hes athletic, but there are/were tons of guys in ROH who are twice as athletic, twice as fast, and can do way more moves, but where are they? Either still in ROH or on the indies. Punk stood out, Samoa Joe stood out, these guys play roles that you can connect to and that’s why they had the success they’ve gotten. And in the annals of wrestling history, all of the biggest stars and most money making ones, had that one thing. That is what ROH needs to get. Nigel McGuiness, Bryan Danielson, and the Briscoes are all great wrestlers. I am a big fan of Nigel because he works a really stiff style a la Finlay and Regal that I really love to watch. But when a guy says “I am Brian Danielson and I am going to ________ when I get in the ring with Mark Briscoe†it doesn’t have the same presence as “My name is Stone Cold Steve Austin, and tonight I am going to open a can of whoop ass on The Rock.â€

So that, in my opinion, are the two big things ROH needs. They need to decide if they want to stay a small niche fed, or if they want to try and make obscene amounts of money. That’s not to say you cant do both. There are a lot of ways to make money while keeping your artistic integrity. Look at The Black Album, look at Clerks. When Metallica and Kevin Smith sat down and started to make their vision, both of them had masters to serve. They each had to satisfy someone who was either bankrolling it, promoting it, or whatever. But those people trusted the artist enough to know that if they do it right, it will be good and it will make money. There is also something to be said for NOT listening to people, like, the fans. Now, don’t get me wrong, you cant shit all over them, but you cant let them dictate everything you do because the most vocal fans (thank you internet) who think they are smarter than the average fan and a lot of times think they know how to make more money than Vince McMahon, a person who has made, lost, and then made more money than most of us will ever see. It boils down to what, I think, makes the USA great, democracy. If the majority of the fans are buying something, go with it because that’s the kinda shit that will make you successful and help you to draw money.


I will be back next week with a full No Mercy review as well as the second half of my fantasy booking with Jeff Hardy as well as MAYBE, some fact or fiction. The first three people to PM me will get to be part of the panel, so if you want to, you know what to do. See ya next week!
 

THE Brian Kendrick's Biceps

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Jimmy Jacobs has my favourite gimmick in the world right now, and he's in ROH.

And at this stage, while they may be the things that would help ROH succeed (I'm not arguing with that), ROH doesn't look like it wants to yet. It wants to be the smaller indy one. It's not going TNA and trying to jump in and win. It's just sitting there, biding its time.
 

Montana

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For someone who doesn't really watch ROH, i think you hit the nail on the head in concept.

The first was a excellent one, and i feel you are correct. Do they want to 100% wrestling focused, or sell out and go mainstream. What is there goal? I think right now ROH is in a waiting stage, because they dont know. They have short term goals. They want growth. More markets, more dvds sales, more ticket sales. Its the safe route.

In terms of wrestling in a serious fashion or the ROH style, they cannot change that. Its something new to the american audience. Similar to Japans style. Thats what makes ROH ,ROH.

As far as "characters" go...Like BKB said, Jimmie Jacobs probably has the best character in wrestling today. I'll go on record to say he's had more career growth, and character growth in a few years to the point, where its the best development i've ever seen. From a loser for years trying to follow a girl, fighting for the girl, finally getting the girl, starting a revolution, getting the girl taken away, now it seems believable he is unstable.

Then you have Sweet n Sour Inc. Almost a jab at the WWE and entertainment. Basically over the top characters as heels in ROH. Works perfect. Then Larry Sweeney sells ROH talent, up the river to Vince (ha ha ha)

Danielson is kinda your all american, nigel is kinda like the anti american, briscoes are kinda like your american badasses.

The rest are mostly personalities, not really characters. I think that is fine as in.

If you want to see the WWE verison of ROH check out New Horizons on PPV. Its basically like a Monday Night Raw for ROH. Very storyline driven, and shows ROH's style. Problem is, this show is not ROH's best work by any means. There promos and matches are generally much better. But for a quick overall of ROH at the moment, thats kind of like a review show.
 

Headfirst For Hardcore

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I agree too with your ideas here. It might not seem like it, but slowly, ROH is starting to become more of a rounded promotion. A couple of years ago, tons of guys could become a star in ROH because of how they wrestled. Now, with so much talent on the roster, the gimmicks and mic work of some people are helping them succeed. The characters are starting to become more like real people, instead of guys that just wrestler. I'd use the example of the Jimmy Jacobs and Austin Aries feud, where Aries stole Jacobs' girl, and Jacobs becomes a psychopath. That stuff is relateable, so it's not like "Wrestler A vs Wrestler B" now without an aim or purpose.

and there's more of emotion to ROH matches than before too. if you watch a show like Up For Grabs, you see Jimmy Jacobs and Tyler Black win the tag team titles. The fans started booing them and throwing garbage. That meant a ton to me, seeing so called "smart" fans boo the heels. The line between face and heel is starting to separate more, which is better for ROH if they wanted to anything big.

as for what ROH wants to be, I really don't think they just want to be an indy promotion. they still are trying to get newer markets where they can have shows, like the midwest. if they just wanted to be an indy, they wouldn't have made the move to PPV. It's baby steps, I'm thinking that the ROH officials learned something from seeing what TV did to ECW.
 

Kaedon

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For someone who doesn't really watch ROH, i think you hit the nail on the head in concept.

The first was a excellent one, and i feel you are correct. Do they want to 100% wrestling focused, or sell out and go mainstream. What is there goal? I think right now ROH is in a waiting stage, because they dont know. They have short term goals. They want growth. More markets, more dvds sales, more ticket sales. Its the safe route.

In terms of wrestling in a serious fashion or the ROH style, they cannot change that. Its something new to the american audience. Similar to Japans style. Thats what makes ROH ,ROH.

As far as "characters" go...Like BKB said, Jimmie Jacobs probably has the best character in wrestling today. I'll go on record to say he's had more career growth, and character growth in a few years to the point, where its the best development i've ever seen. From a loser for years trying to follow a girl, fighting for the girl, finally getting the girl, starting a revolution, getting the girl taken away, now it seems believable he is unstable.

Then you have Sweet n Sour Inc. Almost a jab at the WWE and entertainment. Basically over the top characters as heels in ROH. Works perfect. Then Larry Sweeney sells ROH talent, up the river to Vince (ha ha ha)

Danielson is kinda your all american, nigel is kinda like the anti american, briscoes are kinda like your american badasses.

The rest are mostly personalities, not really characters. I think that is fine as in.

If you want to see the WWE verison of ROH check out New Horizons on PPV. Its basically like a Monday Night Raw for ROH. Very storyline driven, and shows ROH's style. Problem is, this show is not ROH's best work by any means. There promos and matches are generally much better. But for a quick overall of ROH at the moment, thats kind of like a review show.

Monty, I really hate that word, sellout. The point is to draw money, however you can. If a company thinks they can do it a certain way, like ROH think they can, god bless em. But to suggest that if they change their style to appeal to a mass audience to do what you are in the business to do is a sellout, thats ridiculous. That is the kind of foolish pride that keeps underground musicians and artists underground. "No man, you just dont understand my vision, thats why you think my music sucks" while this argument can be made, its usually made by bands who make shitty music. Which leads me to the style thing. Why do you think that style doesnt appeal to American wrestling fans? Sure, it hasnt gotten exposure here, but I would like someone to tell me one, just one, movie or TV show that had a fight seen where there was out and out no selling pretty much all the time. Even the TERMINATOR sold shit. And Monty, I know you for sure, and many others have this misconception that it takes a lot of time to sell or that it cuts down the pace of the match. If you sell like they did in the 80s, yeah it will. But it takes no more than 2 seconds to shake your arm, shake your leg, or whatever hurts and then go on to do your spot, and then sell it again for 2 seconds. Its not hard,

As far as the character thing, when I see Nigel McGuinness, I can tell he is an anti-american heel. But when you saw CM Punk as a heel, he looked down his nose at you, chin up, and looked like a cocky fucking prick. The "all american" gimmick, tell me what that is? When the best characters have gimmicks, you can tell before even hearing them talk, what their character is or at least their personality. I see a lot of stone faces in ROH, and not a lot of lateral movement. Austin had a stone face, but he let you know what he was about with that BMF walk. The Rock, any of Foleys personass, Ric Flair, HBK, HHH, Dusty Rhodes, all of the greats do that.
 

Montana

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Note to self: Kaedon doesn't like the term "sell out". Just cause some people think "selling out" is bad, doesnt mean it is. It is what it is, if someone wants to interupt that negatively or postively so be it.

Style: I said " In terms of wrestling in a serious fashion or the ROH style, they cannot change that. Its something new to the american audience. Similar to Japans style. Thats what makes ROH ,ROH"

You Said " Why do you think that style doesnt appeal to American wrestling fans? Sure, it hasnt gotten exposure here, but I would like someone to tell me one, just one, movie or TV show that had a fight seen where there was out and out no selling pretty much all the time"


What are you talking about?!? I just said they have a original style for the US, NOT that it wouldn't appeal. I think it would appeal, due to it being somewhat NEW or different. And the "no sell" rant. First of all, you putting words in my mouth. Your taking a minor flaw, and exploiting it 10x. Do they no sell some moves, YES. Do they no sell every move, no way. Yes, its wrestling that's scripted, but if you were in a real fight and someone gave you a suplex or something. Would you just lay there dead? I think in some respect it gives it a little more realism. Overall, i would like to see them sell moves a bit more. But its certainly not hurting the product in my opinion.

I don't know how to respond to the gimmick thing. If i look at dusty rhodes i see a overweight guy. Nothing special about ric flair at first chance. Like i said ROH uses PERSONALITIES and NOT Gimmicks or characters. Theres no Umaga's or Undertakers. Love it, hate it, it is what it is.
 

Moonlight Drive

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Montana made a pretty good point there.

You say if someone gave you a suplex in a real fight, you're right, you wouldn't lay there dead or something. But what about all the strikes that are thrown in professional wrestling? If you were in a real fight to you think you'd get up after getting nailed straight in the nose multiple times, without any blood for that matter? That is no selling.
 

Kaedon

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Note to self: Kaedon doesn't like the term "sell out". Just cause some people think "selling out" is bad, doesnt mean it is. It is what it is, if someone wants to interupt that negatively or postively so be it.

Style: I said " In terms of wrestling in a serious fashion or the ROH style, they cannot change that. Its something new to the american audience. Similar to Japans style. Thats what makes ROH ,ROH"

You Said " Why do you think that style doesnt appeal to American wrestling fans? Sure, it hasnt gotten exposure here, but I would like someone to tell me one, just one, movie or TV show that had a fight seen where there was out and out no selling pretty much all the time"


What are you talking about?!? I just said they have a original style for the US, NOT that it wouldn't appeal. I think it would appeal, due to it being somewhat NEW or different. And the "no sell" rant. First of all, you putting words in my mouth. Your taking a minor flaw, and exploiting it 10x. Do they no sell some moves, YES. Do they no sell every move, no way. Yes, its wrestling that's scripted, but if you were in a real fight and someone gave you a suplex or something. Would you just lay there dead? I think in some respect it gives it a little more realism. Overall, i would like to see them sell moves a bit more. But its certainly not hurting the product in my opinion.

I don't know how to respond to the gimmick thing. If i look at dusty rhodes i see a overweight guy. Nothing special about ric flair at first chance. Like i said ROH uses PERSONALITIES and NOT Gimmicks or characters. Theres no Umaga's or Undertakers. Love it, hate it, it is what it is.

No selling is not a minor flaw. Yes, if you take one move, in and of itself, you dont generally need to spend the whole match selling it. But if you get suplexed, body slammed, back breakered, and then powerbombed and you DONT EVEN GRAB YOUR FUCKING BACK for the next few minutes once in a while, that is Blue and quite frankly insulting. We know its a work, but were pretending its a shoot. I know YOU dont monty because you have evolved beyond us wrestling fans, but most do. We pretend its real, within the context of the event. If we keep being told by the wrestler "Hey see all these moves, they dont matter because I'm doing them just to do them" how the hell are we supposed to suspend our disbelief. No one believes Spiderman can stick to a wall. It cant happen. But within the context of that movie, we will say "yeah, he's Spidey and he can do that." If Spiderman didnt use his webs to swing around the city and he just magically flew because "Ahhh well you know its fake so lets just make it even more fake" MOST POEPLE (not montana) would be like WHAT THE FUCK!?


And the "personalities" thing is a complete cop out. This shit started because of Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. Ever since they came out and got over using their real names, all these new guys figure "ahhh I can just be me" and you cant. Not all of the time. Guess what, most people arent that interesting. And people on the indys who do that, do it because they dont give a rats ass about their character. All they care about is how many spots they can work in during a match. Can it work? Yeah, it can work but it doesnt always. Steve Boreden is, as far as I can tell, an uninteresting guy. He believes in God and gives to charity. Woooopie. So lets say, in the middle of WCW's run, instead of Hulk Hogan feuding with Sting, he was feuding with "Steve Boreden". Up in the rafters, there is a guy wearing a pair of generic tights. What would the people do? "Hey look theres some guy up there who looks, walks, and talks, like every other guy in the fed." But Sting in all black, ghostly facepaint, the trench, its way more interesting to the average fan (who isnt Montana)
 

Montana

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Montana made a pretty good point there.

You say if someone gave you a suplex in a real fight, you're right, you wouldn't lay there dead or something. But what about all the strikes that are thrown in professional wrestling? If you were in a real fight to you think you'd get up after getting nailed straight in the nose multiple times, without any blood for that matter? That is no selling.

Exactly. But you really don't see many punches in ROH because its against the rules in wrestling. 90% of the time its a forearm, and people do get knocked out due to kicks, lariats, and forearms.

No selling is not a minor flaw. Yes, if you take one move, in and of itself, you dont generally need to spend the whole match selling it. But if you get suplexed, body slammed, back breakered, and then powerbombed and you DONT EVEN GRAB YOUR FUCKING BACK for the next few minutes once in a while, that is Blue and quite frankly insulting. We know its a work, but were pretending its a shoot. I know YOU dont monty because you have evolved beyond us wrestling fans, but most do. We pretend its real, within the context of the event. If we keep being told by the wrestler "Hey see all these moves, they dont matter because I'm doing them just to do them" how the hell are we supposed to suspend our disbelief. No one believes Spiderman can stick to a wall. It cant happen. But within the context of that movie, we will say "yeah, he's Spidey and he can do that." If Spiderman didnt use his webs to swing around the city and he just magically flew because "Ahhh well you know its fake so lets just make it even more fake" MOST POEPLE (not montana) would be like WHAT THE FUCK!?


And the "personalities" thing is a complete cop out. This shit started because of Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. Ever since they came out and got over using their real names, all these new guys figure "ahhh I can just be me" and you cant. Not all of the time. Guess what, most people arent that interesting. And people on the indys who do that, do it because they dont give a rats ass about their character. All they care about is how many spots they can work in during a match. Can it work? Yeah, it can work but it doesnt always. Steve Boreden is, as far as I can tell, an uninteresting guy. He believes in God and gives to charity. Woooopie. So lets say, in the middle of WCW's run, instead of Hulk Hogan feuding with Sting, he was feuding with "Steve Boreden". Up in the rafters, there is a guy wearing a pair of generic tights. What would the people do? "Hey look theres some guy up there who looks, walks, and talks, like every other guy in the fed." But Sting in all black, ghostly facepaint, the trench, its way more interesting to the average fan (who isnt Montana)

Minor flaw, as in It happens rarely. On a whole show i may see 1-3 examples of not selling enough. But the EXACT same thing happens on every wrestling show Kaedon. What about someone like Umaga when he no sells. Thats OK because he's tough and samoan. Or Foley taking multiple chairshots to the head. I can point out a TON of WWE faults. But when ROH does one, the whole organization is trash. Come on kaedon, your just flustering yourself.

I give you credit for a good write up, then you completely piss it all away with ignorant rants. The last two post your talking about other BS more than ROH. Music, spider man, WCW, outsiders, sting, dust, flair.

Different strokes for different folks kaedon.
 

Kaedon

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Exactly. But you really don't see many punches in ROH because its against the rules in wrestling. 90% of the time its a forearm, and people do get knocked out due to kicks, lariats, and forearms.



Minor flaw, as in It happens rarely. On a whole show i may see 1-3 examples of not selling enough. But the EXACT same thing happens on every wrestling show Kaedon. What about someone like Umaga when he no sells. Thats OK because he's tough and samoan. Or Foley taking multiple chairshots to the head. I can point out a TON of WWE faults. But when ROH does one, the whole organization is trash. Come on kaedon, your just flustering yourself.

I give you credit for a good write up, then you completely piss it all away with ignorant rants. The last two post your talking about other BS more than ROH. Music, spider man, WCW, outsiders, sting, dust, flair.

Different strokes for different folks kaedon.

Im not telling you what you can and cant like, I am telling you what will and will not draw money. As far as the no selling, when Foley took those multiple chair shots at the rumble, he didnt get back up like it didnt hurt, he staggered, he had a look of pain on his face. When Umaga gets hit by a guy like The Brian Kendrick, yeah, he no sells, why the fuck would a forearm from a guy that small do any damage, but when he gets hit by HHH, HBK, Batista, and other guys, he snaps his head back a little at least. Even the king of no sellling, The Undertaker did that.
 

THE Brian Kendrick's Biceps

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Im not telling you what you can and cant like, I am telling you what will and will not draw money. As far as the no selling, when Foley took those multiple chair shots at the rumble, he didnt get back up like it didnt hurt, he staggered, he had a look of pain on his face. When Umaga gets hit by a guy like The Brian Kendrick, yeah, he no sells, why the fuck would a forearm from a guy that small do any damage, but when he gets hit by HHH, HBK, Batista, and other guys, he snaps his head back a little at least. Even the king of no sellling, The Undertaker did that.

Size has absolutely nothing to do with how hard someone can punch. Guys with the biggest muscles can punch like pussies. So in a way, the way he sells that is kinda screwed up.
 

Kaedon

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But size does have to do with how much meat is on the guys head, therefore cushioning the blow. If you punch a fat fuck in the stomach and the same person punches a guy who is 6ft1 150, there is a lot less padding, therefore it will hurt more if the puncher uses the same power.
 

THE Brian Kendrick's Biceps

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That has absolutely nothing to do with the comparison of THE punching Umaga to Triple H punching Umaga.
 

Kaedon

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That has absolutely nothing to do with the comparison of THE punching Umaga to Triple H punching Umaga.

Yes it does because, I, unlike you, think by and large, not all the time, but by and large, that bigger guys can punch harder. More weight therefore more velocity therefore more power. Sure, Mike Tyson can hit harder than HHH and The Big Show, who are bigger, but he is a trained striker. BKB, they tell us, is more versed in using his feet. Thats why HHH and other guys who are bigger sell the fuck out of his kicks as opposed to his punches because he doesnt look like he would hurt you if he punched you. I wish I could let him punch me just so I could know because it doesnt look like it would hurt. The guy is smaller than my 12 year old cousin for gods sake, and my 12 year old cousin doesnt throw a hard punch after being trained in Martial Arts for 5 years.