Impossible WWE Standard

[UndertakerTheGreat]

Taking from the report in the News Section that Steph wants to start pushing new talent I have to wonder what dad thinks. With a few exceptions the only guys who've held either world title are Vince's favored super pumped bruisers like Cena, Batista,and HHH. The guys who don't have the super bionic builds like Hardy, Taker, Edge, and Punk were little more than transitional champions throughout the last two years. The scene is always dominated by the Muscles though.
Looking at our new talent with the most potential to run with the torch are MVP,Evan Bourne, Punk,Christian, Kofi, Swagger, Cody, Dibiase, and a few others. I heard Jeff wants out, and who knows how long Rey will be around? Most of these new guys have nothing resembling the physiques of the current top dogs, probably never will. I have to wonder how realistic Steph's goal is? Can WWE move past that impossible standard, and can Vince get past that ONE type of image he is so comfortable with to give these smaller new guys a chance?

 

[the dark knight]

it depends. old big guys were awesome, new big guys like knox and umaga are fucking boring and lame.

im alll for pushing the big guys tbh as long as they're the lesnar/taker type. it makes things look a bit more realistic. i'd much rather have khali as champ than mysterio.

 

[phantomgerald]

I actually think small is good. Not Mysterio small, but about the size of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Mr perfect etc. I think the new guys that deserve to be pushed are of that size, namely MVP, John Morrison and CM Punk. If a big guy comes along that genuinely deserves to be pushed, then that's all good. But I hate it when a big guy with zero talent gets pushed to the limit the way Khali was.

 

[MikeRaw]

Bullshit. Batista hasn't held a title in a long ass time. Cena has held it lots, but not because of his muscle. Because he's the face of the company. And Triple H isn't what I would describe as one of the big muscular guys, like a Lesnar or Goldberg.
So the idea of the whole body type thing is stupid. The guys in the main event are all pretty normal sized, compared to some of the huge musclular guys that used to be around. The only guy who really fits that bill is Batista.
Also, Edge is much more than a transitional champion. The guy is a Nien time World Champion. He's clearly their top heel on SD, and some, including myself, would argue that he's the top heel in the company.
Now, it's all well and good for you to sit back and say they should pass the torch already... But to who? Why the hell woudl Evan Bourne or Kofi Kingston make a credible world champion? Swagger? Sure, I like him, but not for 2-3 years. And if you honestly think Cody and Ted can be World Champions in any less than a year and a half, then LOL. I just don't see the issue here, sorry. You say that those guys like Bourne, Kofi, etc wont be world champions, and that's true. But not because of their body size. It's because the main event scene is storyline driven, which you should know, as a Taker fan, and none of those guys you listed, with the exception of MVP and Punk (who shouldn't be classed with the others you listed anyway, cause they're already above them), can tell storylines at all. Those guys are only good for matches, and they have no personality, and can't tell a story. Why would they be a main eveter?

 

[UndertakerTheGreat]

Bullshit. Batista hasn't held a title in a long ass time. Cena has held it lots, but not because of his muscle. Because he's the face of the company. And Triple H isn't what I would describe as one of the big muscular guys, like a Lesnar or Goldberg.
So the idea of the whole body type thing is stupid. The guys in the main event are all pretty normal sized, compared to some of the huge musclular guys that used to be around. The only guy who really fits that bill is Batista.
Also, Edge is much more than a transitional champion. The guy is a Nien time World Champion. He's clearly their top heel on SD, and some, including myself, would argue that he's the top heel in the company.
Now, it's all well and good for you to sit back and say they should pass the torch already... But to who? Why the hell woudl Evan Bourne or Kofi Kingston make a credible world champion? Swagger? Sure, I like him, but not for 2-3 years. And if you honestly think Cody and Ted can be World Champions in any less than a year and a half, then LOL. I just don't see the issue here, sorry. You say that those guys like Bourne, Kofi, etc wont be world champions, and that's true. But not because of their body size. It's because the main event scene is storyline driven, which you should know, as a Taker fan, and none of those guys you listed, with the exception of MVP and Punk (who shouldn't be classed with the others you listed anyway, cause they're already above them), can tell storylines at all. Those guys are only good for matches, and they have no personality, and can't tell a story. Why would they be a main eveter?

Read my OP. I didn't say these new guys SHOULD be pushed, I commented that Steph wants to push them. I'm pretty neutral on it. And yes the body builders have been either world title holders, or at least in the main event scene for awhile now. Vince is not shy about his preference for big muscleheads. The only reason Batista wasn't world champ recently was because he was injured. He's been back just a month or so , and he's already in contention.
As for Edge sure he's a nine time champ, but his reigns rarely exceed a few months or so. Compare that to Cena who sometimes has the title for a year or more. Taker never had the title for more than a few months either.
How is Punk above some of the other guys listed? He cashed in the MITB last year, and won. But what has he really done since he lost that title?A bum tag reign with Kofi, short IC reign? Ok so he has another MITB now, but how far will that go? Half the IWC claims to hate everything about him, I like him really. I enjoy his kickboxing style, and it doesn't hurt that he's cute as a button.
Finally as for talking we can't say these new guys are incapable with the mic because we hardly ever see them with the mic. We can't judge them if we never hear them.If they were given a real chance to blossom they might not be too bad.
The fact is very plain. A good bit of Main eventers are leaving within a year. Kane's reportedly leaving in June, Jeff Hardy wants out, Batista retirement rumors are swirling, meanwhile HBK, and Taker probably have a year at best. If these new guys are gonna fill boots now is the time to work with them. Ready them, prepare them for the inevitable. Steph is a genius to be able to see into the future in that respect. We can't assume they don't have ME ability without cultivating them first. Right now they ALWAYS take a backseat to current ME guys. They don't get a chance to blossom because nobody focuses on them much. If you really believe these guys have no potential than what the Hell will happen when the current ME'ers do leave?

 

[MikeRaw]

Read my OP. I didn't say these new guys SHOULD be pushed, I commented that Steph wants to push them. I'm pretty neutral on it. And yes the body builders have been either world title holders, or at least in the main event scene for awhile now. Vince is not shy about his preference for big muscleheads. The only reason Batista wasn't world champ recently was because he was injured. He's been back just a month or so , and he's already in contention.

How do you know Vince will refuse to push non-huge guys.

As for Edge sure he's a nine time champ, but his reigns rarely exceed a few months or so.

That's cause he's a heel. If you think that means the company doesn't have faith in them, you're wrong. He's a heel, so he has to lose often.

Compare that to Cena who sometimes has the title for a year or more. Taker never had the title for more than a few months either.

That's cause he's a face. And Taker would've had the title longer if he wasn't a walking body bag. He kept getting injrued. Plus, he knows his role, which was to put younger guys over, such as Edge.

How is Punk above some of the other guys listed? He cashed in the MITB last year, and won. But what has he really done since he lost that title?A bum tag reign with Kofi, short IC reign? Ok so he has another MITB now, but how far will that go? Half the IWC claims to hate everything about him, I like him really. I enjoy his kickboxing style, and it doesn't hurt that he's cute as a button.

How about the fact that he's beaten Edge 2 weeks in a row, is getting a main event push on SD, and will probably be cashing in again in a few weeks.

Finally as for talking we can't say these new guys are incapable with the mic because we hardly ever see them with the mic. We can't judge them if we never hear them.If they were given a real chance to blossom they might not be too bad.

Yes, we can. Evan Bourne and Kofi can NOT tell a story. At all.

The fact is very plain. A good bit of Main eventers are leaving within a year. Kane's reportedly leaving in June, Jeff Hardy wants out, Batista retirement rumors are swirling, meanwhile HBK, and Taker probably have a year at best. If these new guys are gonna fill boots now is the time to work with them. Ready them, prepare them for the inevitable. Steph is a genius to be able to see into the future in that respect. We can't assume they don't have ME ability without cultivating them first. Right now they ALWAYS take a backseat to current ME guys. They don't get a chance to blossom because nobody focuses on them much. If you really believe these guys have no potential than what the Hell will happen when the current ME'ers do leave?[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should consider that Vince isn't "addicted" to big muscle guys anymore. The only one I see is Batista. Vince isn't a moron. He knows he needs to push new guys, and he obviously will. Do you think he's not going to push anyone? He will. Just not the gus you lsited like Kofi and Bourne. They'll probably be pushing guys like Morrison, Swagger, Kennedy, MVP and a few others, in addition to already pushing Punk.
Overall, I just don't see whyat you're complaining about. I don't even see these big muscle guys you're talking about.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

And Triple H isn't what I would describe as one of the big muscular guys, like a Lesnar or Goldberg.

Remember 2003 HHH? That guy was juiced to the tip. Dude was having body building competitions with Scott Steiner and tearing quads like nothing. Guy was BIGGER than Goldberg easy. He has shrunken alot since getting off the stuff, but in 03, there was no question that the guy was as muscle bound as anyone to hold the strap, and he's still rather large compared to the average WWE wrestler.

Smaller guys make great champions...Flair,Savage,Steamboat, Hart, HBK, Austin and Foley were all fantastic champs with average size and physique and three of those six guys drew more money than the current formula does, Austin basically outdrew the entire current WWE main event stable (There's nothing to argue, WWE hasn't sniffed anywhere near a billion dollar profit since 2001) and he was 6'1 with beer gut and bad knees. Being a successful world champion HAS ALL TO DO WITH BOOKING AND ABILITY AND NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, TO DO WITH IMAGE. Mick Foley rode a train ride of pity to his first world championship then sold a shitload of books to boot. Bret Hart and HBK were tapped to be world champions after the first batch of hosses left and they did ok during a downturn in business plus they had great matches that WWF fans weren't accustomed to seeing in their main events. Psycho Sid and Diesel were flops as champs despite having "the WWF look". You can look like a million bucks in a pair of spandex, but if the booking is weak, the reign will be weak. Image is nothing and usually draws nothing if there is no substance to it.

Batista and HHH had the best build up to a WrestleMania title match since Rock/Austin @ 17 and afterwards everything fell flat for Tista. His programs were weak, he was drafted to the "B" show, the numbers never rose and he never really regained the absurd heat he had while working the program with Trips because he was never given great booking again. And now Edge has stepped in and become the go-to guy in the ME scene, why? Because he has the "it" to get the heat with or without solid booking, and with Edge, its mostly poor booking, he just turns lemons into lemonade. To see further evidence that the "look" has nothing to do with making a great main event, you need look no further to this years WM. You have the WWE image standard bearer in Triple H, going up against one of the hottest heels in the E in Randy Orton and you get NO reaction when Triple H wins. That is just an indictment to where the E is headed right now. They book what they want, who they want, regardless if the fans are obvious in their disapproval and it's generally not working. Outside Cena, it's not working for a single muscle head.

What's stunning about this news is that Stephanie McMahon, who is notorious for being the biggest yes man to Vince is deciding that they need fresh, young, steroid free-looking talent to be the company's foundation as they market to their new PG audience. What the E needs to do is re-invest in their booking methods, go back to listening to the audience and get with the times. Parents aren't going to want their kids watching some 40+ year old guy who was once jacked up on roids, just as parents and their children are shunning real athletes like A-Rod and how a whole city can turn their back on a guy like Manny Ramirez in two seconds is the same audience that is tuning out the E for parading around these stagnant "monsters" like HHH and Batista, like they did to Sid and Diesel in the 90s. The WWE has been making the facade that they are changing with the times, but it's still the same formula that hasn't work for the most part since the Attitude Era ended and Rock and Austin left. But apparently the WWE is striving for having the crowd chant, "Nah nah na na, hey,hey, hey...GOODBYE" when their "top" face is being carted off and heatless WrestleMania main events instead of having the entire building rock once they hear the familiar tune of their favorite superstars music hit the PA.

 

[The Member]

We don't have to worry about passing the torch just yet. The foundation of WWE's main event atm is John Cena, Edge, Randy Orton & Triple H. These two are the main four. Triple H & Cena, our oh so beloved faces, and Edge & Orton are heels. They have at least a good 2-3 more years before BEGINNING their road's to retirement. I don't even believe they are in their prime just yet, minus Edge. I don't think he'll get better, he's already as great as he's ever been. So in the span of 2-3 years we can see Bourne gardner techniques on the mic, and to tell a story, and Kofi can gain some likable characters. Notice how most the guys named are all baby faces except MVP & Morrison. WWE screws up because most of their new talent, they turn them into cute little munchin's of the roster, and not the badass's that enjoy fighting the crowd wishes they can be. WWE needs to work on how they build stars. Right now, the best contenders to have the torch passed to in 2-3 years is Dibiase, Rhodes (with lots of building), Porter, Punk, & Morrison (I dont think they take him serious enough, and need to get him in major stories).

As for the image you guys say Vince has, I agree there must be some image there, but its the truth. These guys are acting, trying to make the stories look real. When you have some pint~sized Rey Mysterio winning against an OLYMPIC WRESTLER twice his size, and another guy its just unbelieveable. Sure its cool to have an underdog story, but its not believable at all. Their goal is to make it look realistic, not fake. Vince's image is the image all professional wrestling booker' & writers look for. The REAL image.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

Triple H was on roids for multiple therapy stints... not to pull off the musclebound look. He was using 'em to get through therapy while he was working out to get back in shape, and that was the result. He never exceeded his prescription, I remember reading an article about it during the last steroid scandal.

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

Parents aren't going to want their kids watching some 40+ year old guy who was once jacked up on roids,

Out of all the things parents can point out about wrestling, I don't see that as one.

 

[MikeRaw]

Exactly, CMS. Somehow, I doubt that will be an issue. And aside from that, like I said, the only guy who really fits the bill is Batista. Everyone else is just normal main event size. IF Vince was ever only in favour of the huge, bulging, muscle guys, which I don't think he was (Look at some of the biggest names in history. I wouldn't say Rock, Austin, HBK, Taker, etc, were abnormally large), that's obviously past now. If he was ever only willing to push the huge guys, it was obviously just a phase, and I don't see that it would have any effect on the future pushing of superstars at all.

 

[Next Big Thing]

the only guy who really fits the bill is Batista. Everyone else is just normal main event size.

Umm.. do you know what John Cena looks like? Cena is just as big as Batista, if not bigger. Batista just looks a lot bigger because he's 6'6 and Cena is 6'1. Look at Cena's arms though. The man is massive.

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

Well, nobody is saying they are normal, not pumped guys. However, you look at Cena and you don't exactly think he has roided his ass off. Haters might point that out, but that isn't the first thing you think when you see him. With Batista, it does.

With a few exceptions the only guys who've held either world title are Vince's favored super pumped bruisers like Cena, Batista,and HHH. The guys who don't have the super bionic builds like Hardy, Taker, Edge, and Punk were little more than transitional champions throughout the last two years. The scene is always dominated by the Muscles though.

Batista: A one week reign.

Cena: From SS to NWO and then one month.


With the exception of Triple H, it seems the so called "big guys" are the ones getting the transitional reigns.


It has been a while since big guys have been the normative in main events. Vince still likes them, I mean, we have heard the rumors of him looking to sign big men with talent (see Lance Hoyt and Tomko), but seeing how the are really behind Evan Bourne, and are currently pushing Miz, Morrison, Kingston, Punk, makes you see that they have already changed.

 

[MikeRaw]

Umm.. do you know what John Cena looks like? Cena is just as big as Batista, if not bigger. Batista just looks a lot bigger because he's 6'6 and Cena is 6'1. Look at Cena's arms though. The man is massive.

Indeed, Cena is huge, but it's not like he took shortcuts to get there. All he did was work out, and, at the time he was pushed, he wasn't as big as he is now anyway. IF there was some bias in Vince towards huge guys, there's nothing to stop these other guys from bulking up huge. But with that being said, I still don't buy into it. I've never seen this thing people talk about where Vince supposedly only likes huge guys. There's been plenty of sucessful stars who weren't massive. Some of the more massive guys have gone on to do less than some of the huge guys. At the end of the day, it's what your overall package is that will get you pushed. Not just your body.

 

[the dark knight]

Indeed, Cena is huge, but it's not like he took shortcuts to get there. All he did was work out.

im not really following the argument but that caught my attention. what does that have to do with anything? he's big isn't he?