But Bret, who had the reputation as being an old school guy, should have had no problem putting the younger Shawn over, he was easily becoming a star, and a much bigger one than Bret. He was just pissy about that and didnt want to make someone look good, at the expense of himself (and this is coming from a huge Bret fan)
Fair or Foul: The Montreal Screwjob
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But Bret, who had the reputation as being an old school guy, should have had no problem putting the younger Shawn over, he was easily becoming a star, and a much bigger one than Bret. He was just pissy about that and didnt want to make someone look good, at the expense of himself (and this is coming from a huge Bret fan)
It was a smart business move and I completely understand why Vince McMahon did it. To be honest, I agree with his decision. You have to do what's best for your business and that's exactly what Vince did.
R.e the Screwjob being staged: No. Not at all. Too many people in the industry, guys on the WWF roster, were worked for this to have been a work, let alone taking 13 years to cash in on it.
To McFly:
How on earth would habe HBK put anybody over at that point in his career? He was just getting build up as a main eventer, and even with that, he had lost two main event profile matches that I can remember, against Diesel and against Razor Ramon. Bret Hart was on the way out, so jobbing to HBK in the Ironman match wasn't something to bitch about. Besides, he didnt even bitch about doing the job. In his mind, he thinks he came out looking bad out of the Ironman match.
To Montana:
Maybe it has to do with the fact that I don't see Bret Hart as 100%. He wasn't 100% professional since WM12, when he was so pissed off coming with the Ironman match that he took some time off and courted with WCW (and attempted a movie career....seriously?). All his shoot promos with HBK on live events (Wrestlemania 13 for crying out loud) aren't from someone who is 100% professional, so I wasn't surprised with Bret Hart turning into a monster that night.
I don't think it was staged. If it was, all those members from the Hart family wouldn't have left the company, Bret wouldn't have been so bitchy about it so many years after the actual event (he would have returned at 2001 or at the very least when he recovered from the stroke in 2002).
How on earth would habe HBK put anybody over at that point in his career? He was just getting build up as a main eventer, and even with that, he had lost two main event profile matches that I can remember, against Diesel and against Razor Ramon. Bret Hart was on the way out, so jobbing to HBK in the Ironman match wasn't something to bitch about. Besides, he didnt even bitch about doing the job. In his mind, he thinks he came out looking bad out of the Ironman match.
To Montana:
Maybe it has to do with the fact that I don't see Bret Hart as 100%. He wasn't 100% professional since WM12, when he was so pissed off coming with the Ironman match that he took some time off and courted with WCW (and attempted a movie career....seriously?). All his shoot promos with HBK on live events (Wrestlemania 13 for crying out loud) aren't from someone who is 100% professional, so I wasn't surprised with Bret Hart turning into a monster that night.
I don't think it was staged. If it was, all those members from the Hart family wouldn't have left the company, Bret wouldn't have been so bitchy about it so many years after the actual event (he would have returned at 2001 or at the very least when he recovered from the stroke in 2002).
ALL of his shoot promos??? I mean i know he wasn't happy about HBK dropping the belt prior to WM 13, but he wasn't getting suspended, or doing anything illegal either. So yeah, Bret and HBK don't mesh well personality wise, but i don't see how disliking someone makes Bret Hart unprofessional. He still worked, and busted his hump with HBK.
As far as returning in 2001, 2002??? The dude was knocked silly. He couldn't wrestle...he's not a talker. He's been wrestling 15 years with very little time off....maybe he just wanted to get out of the spotlight for a bit. The stroke was in middle of 2002. Had several lawsuits ongoing in that time, got married in 2004, and in 2005 restarted talks with wwe for a DVD/ Hall of fame induction.
I see your point about Bret not being 100% professional, all the time. He just wasn't one of the main problem guys backstage. I suppose you could say he was upset since WM 9 when Hogan stole the spotlight and refused to do the job as well. I guess i just don't fault Bret for having a opinion on the politics.
As far as returning in 2001, 2002??? The dude was knocked silly. He couldn't wrestle...he's not a talker. He's been wrestling 15 years with very little time off....maybe he just wanted to get out of the spotlight for a bit. The stroke was in middle of 2002. Had several lawsuits ongoing in that time, got married in 2004, and in 2005 restarted talks with wwe for a DVD/ Hall of fame induction.
I see your point about Bret not being 100% professional, all the time. He just wasn't one of the main problem guys backstage. I suppose you could say he was upset since WM 9 when Hogan stole the spotlight and refused to do the job as well. I guess i just don't fault Bret for having a opinion on the politics.
He jobbed to Kevin Nash and Scott Hall, his Kliq buddies. How surprising. And he wasn't on the way out, the Ironman match was in 96, the Screwjob in 97. Of course he has a right to be mad (you already admitted he wasn't bitching about the job). He's doing the freaking job. He should at least have some say in how much offense Shawn should get on him, and vice versa.
Not being a talker didn't stop him in coming back in 2010 (which makes even less sense than coming back sooner) to a purely talk role being the General Manager. Besides, if the screwjob was a work, that means he would have been on good terms with Vince, would also means he would have returned in 2001 for the Invasion angle.
Yeah, he certainly didnt like HBK, but that doesn't mean you need to add extra material to your promos because of it. You find out nowaways how guys don't like each other, but when you hear their promos, they aren't shooting on each other. Bret Hart talking about how he thought HBK's leg injury was fake didn't fit at all the program and was completely breaking kayfabe in a time where kayfabe still existed. Just btw, this argument goes both sides. HBK was as unproffesional if not more when he shoot on Bret Hart with his Sunny references and whatnot.
And I certainly don't buy he wanted to get out of the spotlight. How many interviews he gave in those years bashing Vince and HBK and whom not. Not only that, but if the screwjob wasn't real, it made no sense for him to do that.
As for McFly, by 96, Bret Hart was on his way out. His career was winding down already. He hardly wrestled during 96, taking most of the year off, and when he indeed returned, the entire storyline was about, guess what, being too old. I meant it in the sense there wasn't too much more for his career, so for him to stop refusing jobs was nonsense. Ironically, he was doing what Hogan and others did to him, thing him, guess what, bitch about it (no surprise)
My point about HBK is, you don't job a building superstar. They were building HBK up as their new main event player, even with that, they had him lose high profile matches. I don't care if it was with their friends or not, even in his building process, he lost those matches. He even lost to Sid in the top of his run. However, this is not about HBK jobbing or not jobbing (because he as well refused to do jobs, he even threatened to not do the job to Stone Cold at Mania 14)
My point is, Bret Hart was in no position to refuse doing jobs. Not only because of the point he was in his career, but because it was his last night in the company. Maybe he was loyal, maybe he had been professional (which as you can see, is very debatable), but sadly for him, there were background of champions who left the company appearing in their new companies and thrashing the belt. Ric Flair was professional with NWA/WCW...that didn't stop him from appearing in WWF with their belt (different reasons, same premise). Maybe Bret Hart wasn't going to do it, but the fact is, there was a chance he might do it, and him refusing to do the job with the promise he would do it tomorrow was enough of a reason for Vince to have his doubts.
As for the last part of your post, I don't quite get what you are talking about, but I take it is about Mania 12. It seems you dont know the history. Bret was mad not because HBK got too much offense in, not because he lost the match, he got mad because in his mind, even though he wrestled an incredible one hour match, he thinks he came out of that match looking like a bad wrestler because of the overtime ending they did. That alone screams volumes of Bret Hart's ego right there.
Yeah, he certainly didnt like HBK, but that doesn't mean you need to add extra material to your promos because of it. You find out nowaways how guys don't like each other, but when you hear their promos, they aren't shooting on each other. Bret Hart talking about how he thought HBK's leg injury was fake didn't fit at all the program and was completely breaking kayfabe in a time where kayfabe still existed. Just btw, this argument goes both sides. HBK was as unproffesional if not more when he shoot on Bret Hart with his Sunny references and whatnot.
And I certainly don't buy he wanted to get out of the spotlight. How many interviews he gave in those years bashing Vince and HBK and whom not. Not only that, but if the screwjob wasn't real, it made no sense for him to do that.
As for McFly, by 96, Bret Hart was on his way out. His career was winding down already. He hardly wrestled during 96, taking most of the year off, and when he indeed returned, the entire storyline was about, guess what, being too old. I meant it in the sense there wasn't too much more for his career, so for him to stop refusing jobs was nonsense. Ironically, he was doing what Hogan and others did to him, thing him, guess what, bitch about it (no surprise)
My point about HBK is, you don't job a building superstar. They were building HBK up as their new main event player, even with that, they had him lose high profile matches. I don't care if it was with their friends or not, even in his building process, he lost those matches. He even lost to Sid in the top of his run. However, this is not about HBK jobbing or not jobbing (because he as well refused to do jobs, he even threatened to not do the job to Stone Cold at Mania 14)
My point is, Bret Hart was in no position to refuse doing jobs. Not only because of the point he was in his career, but because it was his last night in the company. Maybe he was loyal, maybe he had been professional (which as you can see, is very debatable), but sadly for him, there were background of champions who left the company appearing in their new companies and thrashing the belt. Ric Flair was professional with NWA/WCW...that didn't stop him from appearing in WWF with their belt (different reasons, same premise). Maybe Bret Hart wasn't going to do it, but the fact is, there was a chance he might do it, and him refusing to do the job with the promise he would do it tomorrow was enough of a reason for Vince to have his doubts.
As for the last part of your post, I don't quite get what you are talking about, but I take it is about Mania 12. It seems you dont know the history. Bret was mad not because HBK got too much offense in, not because he lost the match, he got mad because in his mind, even though he wrestled an incredible one hour match, he thinks he came out of that match looking like a bad wrestler because of the overtime ending they did. That alone screams volumes of Bret Hart's ego right there.
Nah. It's business. Given what Vince had a stake, trust couldn't come into it.
My verdict: Fair... I lost a lot of respect for Bret in the process.
When he jobbed to Nash and Hall, they were both higher up on the ladder than him. And Bret was on the way out after Mania 12, his contract was up and he was going to take a hiatus and while on his hiatus that's when he took the 20 year deal that was the main catalyst for the turmoil that led to the screwjob. You should also go watch the Iron Man, Bret got more than his fair share of offense in, maybe he feels dicked because Shawn's spots were bigger since Shawn had big spot ability but atleast HBK allowed Bret to dictate the pace during the later minutes of the match so Shawn didn't blow him up even worse. Bret's just a petty person in those regards, according to him he never had a bad match and he'll tell anyone who listens.
In regards to Bret being upset with the Iron Match, the way he describes it is he was the Champion but, the way the match was laid out, he was always playing catch-up to the young, faster, more exciting guy. And then he was upset with the way the overtime just ended without him ever getting his last shots in.
OK, considering Shawn was the younger, faster, more exciting guy and wasn't just going to be winning the match, but was actually going to be given the torch to carry the company, isn't that exactly how it should've been laid out? Shawn was the new Franchise guy, shouldn't he have been made to look as good as possible in that match? Shouldn't Bret, in his role as a team player and company man like he claims, done everything in his ability to make sure Shawn did look good?
Shouldn't that same thing be considered for Montreal? Business is business and Bret was fucking with business. Fair.
OK, considering Shawn was the younger, faster, more exciting guy and wasn't just going to be winning the match, but was actually going to be given the torch to carry the company, isn't that exactly how it should've been laid out? Shawn was the new Franchise guy, shouldn't he have been made to look as good as possible in that match? Shouldn't Bret, in his role as a team player and company man like he claims, done everything in his ability to make sure Shawn did look good?
Shouldn't that same thing be considered for Montreal? Business is business and Bret was fucking with business. Fair.
The problem is you have a HUGE hole in your theory!
IF you believe Bret Hart would have done the job the next night on Raw, then explain why he REFUSED to sign a one day contract extension for Vince? Remember, after the Montreal show, he was NOT under any oblication to do another match, PERIOD. IF he was a man of his word then why did he refuse to sign a contract for one night with a 50K bonus? The ONLY reason a man would refuse a one night, 50K pay off is because he didnt plan to honor it!
FAIR! ALL THE WAY FAIR!
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All I know is without the screwjob, we probably wouldn't have had the Stone Cold character stunning McMahon left and right, and we'd have been left with either a shitty company, or a dead company.
Where did you hear that from? I've read Bret's book, seen Wrestling with Shadows, read Meltzer's reports and hear Vince and HBK's take on the situation. There has never once been disclosed anything like that. It was only Bret's word that Vince had and he never offered Bret a one day contract, you must have that mistaken with Jarrett sticking Vince up for 100k to drop the IC belt to Chyna, but I can almost, with 100% certainty that this is false info.
Jeff Jarrett is the one who said he got the idea to stick Vince with the 100 K payoff because of what happened with Brett during the screw job. He said if he offered Brett 50K what would he really pay, since WCW was still going good at that time. He asked for more than 100K but that is what Vince offered. He said he would have taken about any counter offer as it was just extra money in his pocket but was glad Vince gave him 100K for one match. Jeff has been a lot of things, but he has never been known to make stories up, and I believe it.