Ok IWF, Im hoping this will start a trend here and promote some solid debate amongst the community. We've started to see a surge in debate and discussion lately, so I wanted to bring over a little something from a little place I used to visit called Fair or Foul. It's where some of the most controversial issues in Professional Wrestling's past come to light for discussion. Anyone can post a Fair or Foul. So I figured why not start with one of the most well known controversies that divides wrestling fans, the infamous "Montreal Screwjob". Was it Fair for Vince to call an audible on Bret Hart in his home country to protect his company's championship??? Or, was it Foul and could Vince had given Bret a small break and let him vacate the title after the bout??? Discuss, debate, and have fun!!!
Fair or Foul: The Montreal Screwjob
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Completely fair. Vince was his boss. Vince made him a star. Vince's company had one foot in the grave and if his title were to be thrown in the garbage his company could have died. Bret refusing the job insulted the entire business. Guys who were far more important to the business never refused a job on their way out and Bret thinks he can leave the company gift wrapped to the competiton? No. Was it right? Maybe not. Was it fair? Totally.
Fair. Completely fair. It really doesn't matter how Bret Hart felt about HBK or how much he felt he had "shown" to be a responsible man and trust worthy man, the matter of fact is he was the WWE Champion, he was leaving, he was refusing to do a job and there was already a background of people throwing away WWE championships. Did he really not only expect, but want Vince Mcmahon to just take his word that he would drop the belt next night on Raw to someone else and not appear on Nitro because he was Bret Hart? The single fact that he was refusing to job, independantly that it was to HBK, was enough to make Vince Mcmahon's paranoia valid. Besides, how do we know Bret Hart wouldn't refuse to job to somebody else the next night with some other lame excuse.
Completely fair, and a hell of a lot fun to watch btw. Altough if I had known it would repercute on WM26 and that awful and boring match, I would have passed.
Completely fair, and a hell of a lot fun to watch btw. Altough if I had known it would repercute on WM26 and that awful and boring match, I would have passed.
FAIR. Bret Hart was asked to do something, and he wouldn't do it, so Shawn simply did it for him. Bret was leaving for WCW, and Vince knew people had a history of not giving belts back. Remember when Shawn got suspended and decided to keep the Intercontinental Championship? Granted, yeah, we got an epic ladder match at WrestleMania 10 out of it, but, still! Vince knew that could happen again, and it wasn't something he was willing to risk. Madusa had thrown the Womens Championship in the trash, and you know Vinny Mac wouldn't want to see that happen to the WWF Championship. Yeah, it would have been a ratings monster, but that's exactly what Vince McMahon didn't want! On Bret Harts side, I can completely understand wanting your last match to be a win, and especially in your own hometown, but, that's like quitting your job and then telling your boss you still expect a paycheck. It's not gonna happen! Bret got what he deserved.
100% fair. As a huge Bret Hart fan, this was a sour subject for years lol. But as I got older, and thus smarter on the wrestling buisness, I have to say that Bret was out of line in Montreal that night. But at the same time, Bret, who always had a reputation as an old school type of guy should not have refused to do the job for HBK, the companies biggest star (next to Taker). Vince, did the right thing for his company and started the biggest boom in his companies history, and that I applaud him for, if he wasn't such a great promoter and buisness man I doubt he would have done that, I honestly feel that making that decision was tougher than many would think. It may not have been the most moral thing to do, but like the old saying goes; 'all is fair in love and war.' Despite what Vince or anyone else say, I feel that if that type of event was to happen again everything would go exactly the same.
I have a feeling this is going to be a landslide lol.
I have a feeling this is going to be a landslide lol.
I would call fair on this but I want to play devils advocate for the hell of it. Foul. People call fair on this, it comes down to trust. The guy has been loyal to your company for years, one of your top stars, and you don't want to trust him? He even agreed to drop it the next night. HE WOULD DROP THE TITLE. This would even be a touchy subject if Vince would of listened to him. The guys career is plagued for that one moment. He is mainly remembered for that and it sucks.
Fair....for the same reasons everyone else posted...and i believe Vince hit the nail on the head in his interview like a week after on Raw is War. Bret didn't honor the time honor tradition respecting the company, and it's fans by putting over HBK.
Bret wanted to just drop the belt on Raw and not lose to anyone. He said he didn't want to drop it to HBK cause it was in Canada. Well too bad, Bret is the wrestler, and not the booker.
Even look how Bret acted afterwards, completely unprofessional. (Destroying equipment, and striking Vince backstage)
Bret wanted to just drop the belt on Raw and not lose to anyone. He said he didn't want to drop it to HBK cause it was in Canada. Well too bad, Bret is the wrestler, and not the booker.
Even look how Bret acted afterwards, completely unprofessional. (Destroying equipment, and striking Vince backstage)
Fair.
Ted DiBiase said it best on the Bret Hart DVD. Bret didn't want to lose the belt in his home country of Canada like Montana said. DiBiase said on the DVD that it doesn't matter where the match takes place when millions of house holds across the globe are watching the show. That trumps the 20,000 people in attendance. It's not like it was some house show where only the Canadian people that were there would have seen the match. This was PPV where millions of people saw it. Home country or not, it shouldn't have mattered.
Bret has said he planned on vacating the belt the next night on Raw, but Vince had to protect himself from Bret walking into WCW with the belt. Bret claims he is this wrestling purist, but if that was the case he would have had no problem leaving the company on his back just like everybody else has when they left a company.
Ted DiBiase said it best on the Bret Hart DVD. Bret didn't want to lose the belt in his home country of Canada like Montana said. DiBiase said on the DVD that it doesn't matter where the match takes place when millions of house holds across the globe are watching the show. That trumps the 20,000 people in attendance. It's not like it was some house show where only the Canadian people that were there would have seen the match. This was PPV where millions of people saw it. Home country or not, it shouldn't have mattered.
Bret has said he planned on vacating the belt the next night on Raw, but Vince had to protect himself from Bret walking into WCW with the belt. Bret claims he is this wrestling purist, but if that was the case he would have had no problem leaving the company on his back just like everybody else has when they left a company.
I understand you are playing Devil's Advocate here but, I dont feel that the screwjob is what defined his carrer, if anything is is what defined Vince, or the Mr. McMahon character's carrer. Without that event (and the ensuing 'Bret screwed Bret' interview) I dont think the Mr. McMahon character could have taken off and I dont think that the WWE would still be is buisness if that had not happened.
Fair
You have heard it a thousand times and it is 100% true. Bret screwed Bret! Vince told Hart he had to lose the title that night because he didn't want him taking it to WCW. Bret Hart refused to give up the title in his home country and he said he would give it up the next night on Raw. If Bret would have just listened and did the right thing then Vince wouldn't have to do it. Then Bret gets mad after the match and spits in his face on pay per view. Now that is uncalled for.
You have heard it a thousand times and it is 100% true. Bret screwed Bret! Vince told Hart he had to lose the title that night because he didn't want him taking it to WCW. Bret Hart refused to give up the title in his home country and he said he would give it up the next night on Raw. If Bret would have just listened and did the right thing then Vince wouldn't have to do it. Then Bret gets mad after the match and spits in his face on pay per view. Now that is uncalled for.
To McFly:
and what exactly guarantees that Bret Hart would have indeed dropped the title the next night at Raw? His word. It is a guy telling you he doesn't want to do a job because he is in his hometown, leaving the company, and Vince is supposed to just believe he would do a job next night. I am not buying it.
Let's also remember this wasn't the first time Bret had trouble with a match ending. He's the guy that actually complained about the Ironman match because it made HBK look better than him.
and what exactly guarantees that Bret Hart would have indeed dropped the title the next night at Raw? His word. It is a guy telling you he doesn't want to do a job because he is in his hometown, leaving the company, and Vince is supposed to just believe he would do a job next night. I am not buying it.
Let's also remember this wasn't the first time Bret had trouble with a match ending. He's the guy that actually complained about the Ironman match because it made HBK look better than him.
You know what's funny....I remember this happening like it was yesterday, and back when it first happened, It wasn't 90% or more on Vince's side. It was closer to 50/50, and i always thought Vince was 100% completely right for what he did. I'm glad with more documentaries out and such, the situation has most of the details out in the open.
Here's some more food for thought, since it seems like everyone is on vince's side. Do you think this whole ordeal was staged? Is Vince and company really that intelligent to book this "screw job" and stage it all? There have been rumblings that there is a chance Bret was in on it. For Vince it created a ton of controversy for the WWE. He gave Bret a nice push out of the company, for what should have been a epic debut and run in WCW. I can't say for sure i think it was staged, but if it was, than it was probably one of the best booking moves in the history of wrestling. What surprises me most out of the whole situation was Bret Hart. The guy 100% professional the 10+ years with the company, and then that night he turned into a monster. Now i can understand Bret being upset in that situation, but going that far.
Just something to think about.
Here's some more food for thought, since it seems like everyone is on vince's side. Do you think this whole ordeal was staged? Is Vince and company really that intelligent to book this "screw job" and stage it all? There have been rumblings that there is a chance Bret was in on it. For Vince it created a ton of controversy for the WWE. He gave Bret a nice push out of the company, for what should have been a epic debut and run in WCW. I can't say for sure i think it was staged, but if it was, than it was probably one of the best booking moves in the history of wrestling. What surprises me most out of the whole situation was Bret Hart. The guy 100% professional the 10+ years with the company, and then that night he turned into a monster. Now i can understand Bret being upset in that situation, but going that far.
Just something to think about.
I actually have thought about the whole screwjob being staged honestly. It really would make sense if you think about it, not only could it have helped Vince and the WWE, but if done correctly it could have made Bret's run in WCW epic. I feel that Bret's failed WCW run was more on not knowing how to push him more than anything. Bret could have came in as a huge face with his whole "they screwed me" and blah blah blah, and Vince could have benefitted from it, for the reasons that all have already been stated, and Vince is a creative genius no doubt, but I am not 100% sold on him being able to plan all that himself. I am not saying it was for sure a work, burt it's a definite possibility
Coming from a guy that was loyal to your company, didn't have a problem doing a job for anybody else during his tenure, and went on the record and said that he wanted to finish his career in WWF, yeah I guess I take his word. Also coupled with the fact that they did agree to drop the title on Raw. Jobbing to somebody who is from a certain place where the show is , isn't foreign to anybody.
He complained about a Ironman match where he also did a job to HBK let me point out, while HBK was notorious for putting over absolutely nobody at this time. Which is worse?