Great One
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Soulpower
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I would put Jericho vs Austin (Steel Cage Match), Austin and HHH vs Benoit and Jericho (The match in which HHH tore his quad) and either Guerrero vs RVD, or Taker vs Jeff Hardy (Both were Ladder matches) in the top 10.. As for the rest, I'll add them if I remember them.
Yea ok thats probably why i dont remember shit from that match lol.
I was under the impression that people didnt like the cena hbk match because it seemed to just drag on and not really go anywhere,but personally I loved it.
For the record the match also ended in a tie. Which did not please the fans either.
Also, I loved Cena/HBK once I realised it was gonna go for a bit.
It was hard to get into at the beginning with all the rest holds because you know, it was Raw, I assumed the match would be like 10:00 at the most.
Also, I loved Cena/HBK once I realised it was gonna go for a bit.
It was hard to get into at the beginning with all the rest holds because you know, it was Raw, I assumed the match would be like 10:00 at the most.
One that was from forever ago and most people won't remember it but it was Taka vs HHH for the World Title. It was before HHH was beyond working the first match. It was a solid match with HHH even taking Taka's finisher and getting a long two count. Great back and forth action and it's worth a shot if you can find it out there.
I remember that one.
That was awesome. I knew in my head it wasn't going to happen, but for a few minutes it looked like the WWE was going to swerve us and give Taka the title.
Montana
Guest
5-21-01: Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho vs Steve Austin and Triple H.
Match had everything. Drama, told a story very very well, brawling, technical wrestling, ***** :thumb_yello:
Match had everything. Drama, told a story very very well, brawling, technical wrestling, ***** :thumb_yello:
straight_edge76
Guest
Gotta say The Undisputed Title Ladder Match in 2002 between The Undertaker and Jeff Hardy, or Benoit/Orton on RAW after Summer Slam
PeepShow
Guest
Ill say Jericho/HHH were Jericho beat HHH for the title, but it wasnt really counted. I was estatic after that match. :bounce:
Thought I'd share an article I wrote as an application of sorts for a wrestling blog. I might start my own thing and do regular features if I can put together decent stuff. So please, run with the topic or critique my work, either would be appreciated.
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“I'm the one shaking things up here.â€
That's what newly appointed hero, CM Punk, said this past Monday on Raw. And it's true. The former Straight Edge Savior used all sorts of tactics to change the landscape of WWE and bring a lot of attention to himself. He attacked WWE's golden boy, John Cena. He broke kayfabe (as well as the locker room code) by decrying what was going on behind the scenes. He threatened to hold the company hostage, and then he followed through. His tactics, and perhaps his motivations, were less than noble. But thanks to him, changes took place, changes that will affect the product going forward. CM Punk revived a product recognized by many to have been spiraling. This has turned him, perhaps, into the biggest babyface in the company.
With that in mind, let's look at what happened a few weeks ago on Raw. Beth Phoenix, long considered an excellent wrestler in a lousy women's division, won a battle royal to become the #1 contender for Kelly Kelly's Divas Championship. Kelly, all 85 pounds of her, entered the ring to congratulate her. She stood in front of Beth, clapping her hands. Kelly Kelly, perhaps the worst wrestler in the company. A model who was hired in 2006 at the age of 19, the female equivalent to the male “bodybuilder†stereotype. A “wrestler†who employed few effective moves and became famous by dancing and pretending to strip on ECW. A diva who was in the process of becoming the leader of the division, even though she (in my opinion) can't really do anything other than smile awkwardly.
Beth did what Punk did a month prior: she shook things up. She attacked Kelly. The next week, she explained why: “I am so sick of divas like you making a mockery of the divas division. No more booty popping. No more splits. No more stinkfaces.†She, and later Natalya, stood for something important, something you should care about if you're a wrestling fan. She stood for a noble cause, cleaning up the women's division and putting the wrestlers ahead of the models and dancers. Despite this, she has been presented and treated as a heel. Why was CM Punk's revolution accepted and Beth's rejected?
You can count me among Beth Phoenix' supporters. I've been a fan of hers since she came in, and I completely agreed with her in-character words about the state of the division. Anybody who follows the independent wrestling scene should know about the wealth of female talent just begging to be used: MsChif, Cheerleader Melissa, Portia Perez, Sara Del Rey, and Candace LeRae are just a few of the brilliant female American wrestlers on the scene that haven't had a chance at the “big time.†Beth Phoenix has been presented by WWE not so much as a great wrestler but as a type of sideshow attraction, this decade's answer to Chyna. Look at the girl with the muscles! The difference between Beth and CM Punk is that Punk was given the ammunition to make the changes he spoke of. WWE approved of those changes. They happened not because of him; Punk was nothing more than the vessel for WWE's new direction. Beth Phoenix, on the other hand, has been given scant microphone time or attention, and, as a result, the fans have stayed behind Kelly Kelly.
Perhaps there's no clearer way to understand WWE's direction than match results. At Money in the Bank, CM Punk backed up his words. At Summerslam, Beth was defeated by her lesser opponent, the status quo remaining intact. The divas' story has yet to be fully told, and Beth may yet get the chance to dominate the division and bring with it greater respectability. Maybe some day divas will once again get 10 to 15 minutes to work a match on TV. Maybe the focus will eventually shift away from the models and dancers and toward the wrestlers. However, for the time being, WWE has sent us the message: it still doesn't care about improving its in-ring women's wrestling.
-----------
“I'm the one shaking things up here.â€
That's what newly appointed hero, CM Punk, said this past Monday on Raw. And it's true. The former Straight Edge Savior used all sorts of tactics to change the landscape of WWE and bring a lot of attention to himself. He attacked WWE's golden boy, John Cena. He broke kayfabe (as well as the locker room code) by decrying what was going on behind the scenes. He threatened to hold the company hostage, and then he followed through. His tactics, and perhaps his motivations, were less than noble. But thanks to him, changes took place, changes that will affect the product going forward. CM Punk revived a product recognized by many to have been spiraling. This has turned him, perhaps, into the biggest babyface in the company.
With that in mind, let's look at what happened a few weeks ago on Raw. Beth Phoenix, long considered an excellent wrestler in a lousy women's division, won a battle royal to become the #1 contender for Kelly Kelly's Divas Championship. Kelly, all 85 pounds of her, entered the ring to congratulate her. She stood in front of Beth, clapping her hands. Kelly Kelly, perhaps the worst wrestler in the company. A model who was hired in 2006 at the age of 19, the female equivalent to the male “bodybuilder†stereotype. A “wrestler†who employed few effective moves and became famous by dancing and pretending to strip on ECW. A diva who was in the process of becoming the leader of the division, even though she (in my opinion) can't really do anything other than smile awkwardly.
Beth did what Punk did a month prior: she shook things up. She attacked Kelly. The next week, she explained why: “I am so sick of divas like you making a mockery of the divas division. No more booty popping. No more splits. No more stinkfaces.†She, and later Natalya, stood for something important, something you should care about if you're a wrestling fan. She stood for a noble cause, cleaning up the women's division and putting the wrestlers ahead of the models and dancers. Despite this, she has been presented and treated as a heel. Why was CM Punk's revolution accepted and Beth's rejected?
You can count me among Beth Phoenix' supporters. I've been a fan of hers since she came in, and I completely agreed with her in-character words about the state of the division. Anybody who follows the independent wrestling scene should know about the wealth of female talent just begging to be used: MsChif, Cheerleader Melissa, Portia Perez, Sara Del Rey, and Candace LeRae are just a few of the brilliant female American wrestlers on the scene that haven't had a chance at the “big time.†Beth Phoenix has been presented by WWE not so much as a great wrestler but as a type of sideshow attraction, this decade's answer to Chyna. Look at the girl with the muscles! The difference between Beth and CM Punk is that Punk was given the ammunition to make the changes he spoke of. WWE approved of those changes. They happened not because of him; Punk was nothing more than the vessel for WWE's new direction. Beth Phoenix, on the other hand, has been given scant microphone time or attention, and, as a result, the fans have stayed behind Kelly Kelly.
Perhaps there's no clearer way to understand WWE's direction than match results. At Money in the Bank, CM Punk backed up his words. At Summerslam, Beth was defeated by her lesser opponent, the status quo remaining intact. The divas' story has yet to be fully told, and Beth may yet get the chance to dominate the division and bring with it greater respectability. Maybe some day divas will once again get 10 to 15 minutes to work a match on TV. Maybe the focus will eventually shift away from the models and dancers and toward the wrestlers. However, for the time being, WWE has sent us the message: it still doesn't care about improving its in-ring women's wrestling.
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The main problem I have with your argument, as much as it pains me to bring up hotrod memories, is that Kelly is the most marketable diva. She is over on both brands, fans support her and rally behind her, and she is much younger, prettier, and healthier than Beth.
No matter how good Natalya might be in the ring, which IMO is good while never showing the ability to be great, she has been there for years and can't work a reaction out of any non-Canadian crowd as a wrestler or manager.
Beth despite being kinda over really isn't where she should have been after they basically let her run through the roster when most girls like Maria, Candice, Mickie, etc were over. She is without a doubt the best regular worker in the division with McCool retired and Layla out, but that too isn't saying much since WWE clearly doesn't use her as their go to girl because she doesn't really have the looks to post on and sell magazines or cups, doesn't get the pops and astonishment like Chyna even when they put her in the ring with men to shock you, and she has been put on the shelf with the injury bug when they started to push her seriously on two different occasions. She even once stupidly fucked up the hottest diva the company had going in another big angle in Candice Michelle, and to be honest it was what happened after the injury that showed she really isn't a general who can think on her feet when she dragged her when she was clearly hurt and the ref had thrown up the x for what could have been a spine injury.
I agree they can squeeze more out of Beth, but her overall package really isnt one with a high ceiling that they can milk. She isn't overly pretty enough to pull off the spots Kelly gets outside the ring or LayCool and the Bellas for that matter. She really can't talk well enough nor is she comfortable enough in front of an audience to get the rise out of the crowd like Melina or Trish or Lita or Maria or Stacy or Torrie, and so on. Despite being muscular she isn't imposing as Chyna was to be taken seriously in the ring with men or strong enough to work with them regularly. She makes a great second heel diva to chase just like an angry Henry, Kane, Khali, or Big Show but her novelty wears off. She can even be the good heart warming story of the pretty girl without the looks who makes it to the too and gets a sympathy reign but the novelty wears off.
Natalya is everything i said about Beth, only worse in every area, making her a lite version
With Kelly you get the personification of diva, not woman's wreler.
If you want to see a woman wrestler look at shimmer, old ko matches, or even wrestlicious on mute. There are some great athletes and workers, but at the end of the day, most of them don't matter in the grand scheme of the history of the business more than being just another name working high school gyms, Internet ppvs, theme parks, and so on.
If you want to look back at who the mainstream fans be they faithful, casual, old, or new look at and remember when they think WWE females or female wrestling in general , they are Divas. There was Sunny and Sable who both couldn't work their way out of a shoe, but worked crowds into frenzies, got feuds over, and sold. There were women like Terri Runnels who got over the tag titles and vanilla/emo midget spot monkeys to steal from Nash, like Edge, Christian, Matt, and Jeff when they were young and floating much like teams like the Usos of today are. You can skip to Torrie and Stacy, both amazing lookers and talkers, who while just bra and pantie girls for a large portion of their career, could get anyone or any angle they were associated with over week in and week out (Maryse needs to take notes). Stephanie was very much a diva who could never really go, but her cat fights never lacked a reaction, neither did or does her mic work or appearances because she had an it factor to captivate the masses. LayCool were annoying silly, childish, petty, repetitive, and a cliche Mean Girls ripoff at times but they got a reaction on every show they were on, got spots in magazines, and pr events; same with the Bellas who were and are the wwes leading female ambassadors for make a wish and pr events. Lita was truly unique (like CM Punk) in her look, style of working, and the way she came across on tv before the Matt debacle. Lastly when you discuss divas, you have to look at the standard bearer which was Trish. Before her divas weren't expected to make big upper mid card money, go in the ring while looking good enough to take any photo and make it a mag cover, gain viewers every week over losing a portion of the audience, and be able to tug on the fans emotions; she truly changed the game much like Austin, Cena, Hogan, DX, and the nWo all did for their peers.
Kelly is prettier. Kelly is more over. Kelly is more marketable. Kelly is younger. Kelly has less injuries to her body. Kelly is just the better piece to build a division around than Beth who really offers you nothing over her but match quality, which last I checked while nice, never got the Bryans, Regals, Finlays, Pipers, Perfects, and DiBiases of the world the lead spot over the Hogans, Foleys, Nashs, and so on because at the end of the day the WWE is a business first and foremost with a bottom line they have to look out for.
No matter how good Natalya might be in the ring, which IMO is good while never showing the ability to be great, she has been there for years and can't work a reaction out of any non-Canadian crowd as a wrestler or manager.
Beth despite being kinda over really isn't where she should have been after they basically let her run through the roster when most girls like Maria, Candice, Mickie, etc were over. She is without a doubt the best regular worker in the division with McCool retired and Layla out, but that too isn't saying much since WWE clearly doesn't use her as their go to girl because she doesn't really have the looks to post on and sell magazines or cups, doesn't get the pops and astonishment like Chyna even when they put her in the ring with men to shock you, and she has been put on the shelf with the injury bug when they started to push her seriously on two different occasions. She even once stupidly fucked up the hottest diva the company had going in another big angle in Candice Michelle, and to be honest it was what happened after the injury that showed she really isn't a general who can think on her feet when she dragged her when she was clearly hurt and the ref had thrown up the x for what could have been a spine injury.
I agree they can squeeze more out of Beth, but her overall package really isnt one with a high ceiling that they can milk. She isn't overly pretty enough to pull off the spots Kelly gets outside the ring or LayCool and the Bellas for that matter. She really can't talk well enough nor is she comfortable enough in front of an audience to get the rise out of the crowd like Melina or Trish or Lita or Maria or Stacy or Torrie, and so on. Despite being muscular she isn't imposing as Chyna was to be taken seriously in the ring with men or strong enough to work with them regularly. She makes a great second heel diva to chase just like an angry Henry, Kane, Khali, or Big Show but her novelty wears off. She can even be the good heart warming story of the pretty girl without the looks who makes it to the too and gets a sympathy reign but the novelty wears off.
Natalya is everything i said about Beth, only worse in every area, making her a lite version
With Kelly you get the personification of diva, not woman's wreler.
If you want to see a woman wrestler look at shimmer, old ko matches, or even wrestlicious on mute. There are some great athletes and workers, but at the end of the day, most of them don't matter in the grand scheme of the history of the business more than being just another name working high school gyms, Internet ppvs, theme parks, and so on.
If you want to look back at who the mainstream fans be they faithful, casual, old, or new look at and remember when they think WWE females or female wrestling in general , they are Divas. There was Sunny and Sable who both couldn't work their way out of a shoe, but worked crowds into frenzies, got feuds over, and sold. There were women like Terri Runnels who got over the tag titles and vanilla/emo midget spot monkeys to steal from Nash, like Edge, Christian, Matt, and Jeff when they were young and floating much like teams like the Usos of today are. You can skip to Torrie and Stacy, both amazing lookers and talkers, who while just bra and pantie girls for a large portion of their career, could get anyone or any angle they were associated with over week in and week out (Maryse needs to take notes). Stephanie was very much a diva who could never really go, but her cat fights never lacked a reaction, neither did or does her mic work or appearances because she had an it factor to captivate the masses. LayCool were annoying silly, childish, petty, repetitive, and a cliche Mean Girls ripoff at times but they got a reaction on every show they were on, got spots in magazines, and pr events; same with the Bellas who were and are the wwes leading female ambassadors for make a wish and pr events. Lita was truly unique (like CM Punk) in her look, style of working, and the way she came across on tv before the Matt debacle. Lastly when you discuss divas, you have to look at the standard bearer which was Trish. Before her divas weren't expected to make big upper mid card money, go in the ring while looking good enough to take any photo and make it a mag cover, gain viewers every week over losing a portion of the audience, and be able to tug on the fans emotions; she truly changed the game much like Austin, Cena, Hogan, DX, and the nWo all did for their peers.
Kelly is prettier. Kelly is more over. Kelly is more marketable. Kelly is younger. Kelly has less injuries to her body. Kelly is just the better piece to build a division around than Beth who really offers you nothing over her but match quality, which last I checked while nice, never got the Bryans, Regals, Finlays, Pipers, Perfects, and DiBiases of the world the lead spot over the Hogans, Foleys, Nashs, and so on because at the end of the day the WWE is a business first and foremost with a bottom line they have to look out for.
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What I'm trying to say basically is that Kelly is worth the investment. You can put a 100k on her and get possibly 3 times thay back if you are the company, whereas you are looking at breaking even at best with Nattie or Beth since they just don't have the qualities to get you money back in other outlets outside of the ring itself.
I didn't really mean this as an argument. Just intending to compare the two storylines. I can see a bizarro world where Beth's the one who gets to go all the way with kayfabe-breaking promos and yelling at Vince in the ring, and I honestly think there would be some entertainment value there.
So the implication of your argument is: it's not WWE that's neglecting woman's wrestling, it's US, the fans, that are neglecting it. We get models who can't work because that's what will get the biggest reaction from the majority of the fans. God, that's a fucking depressing thought for me. It's like, we deserve what we're getting. And yet the overwhelming response on the internet to a women's match is "LOL BATHROOM BREAK TIME." Why have the token 3 minute wrestling match at all then? Why bother with the "sexy smart powerful" and the "Be a Star" stuff if the crowd only cares about how sexy the girls are?
I would argue (if I was arguing) that other than being attractive in a wax figurey kind of way, Kelly isn't good at anything, and she's absolutely terrible at a lot of things. Her good-lookingness really is your only argument on her behalf: we can smush down "pretty," "over," "marketable," "younger," and "not injured" to that one element, and that seems to really be the only thing that matters.
So the implication of your argument is: it's not WWE that's neglecting woman's wrestling, it's US, the fans, that are neglecting it. We get models who can't work because that's what will get the biggest reaction from the majority of the fans. God, that's a fucking depressing thought for me. It's like, we deserve what we're getting. And yet the overwhelming response on the internet to a women's match is "LOL BATHROOM BREAK TIME." Why have the token 3 minute wrestling match at all then? Why bother with the "sexy smart powerful" and the "Be a Star" stuff if the crowd only cares about how sexy the girls are?
I would argue (if I was arguing) that other than being attractive in a wax figurey kind of way, Kelly isn't good at anything, and she's absolutely terrible at a lot of things. Her good-lookingness really is your only argument on her behalf: we can smush down "pretty," "over," "marketable," "younger," and "not injured" to that one element, and that seems to really be the only thing that matters.