Calling it now.

[He who knows more than Nation]

wtf? My post was comparing Miz to HHH, nowhere did I present bias for him, if anything the opposite.

I was focusing more on this :

Triple H wasn't a random guy they threw in the main event, he was aligned with Shawn Michaels for a long time, then created a retardedly over faction by himself, and THEN was aligned to the Corporation where he'd run around and rape people to get even more heat. There really isn't THAT many differences with how Miz's run has went. The thing that actually fucking matters, is what happens afterwards. Triple H continued to get legitimized and even when he dropped the title, he was inserted in the most interesting storyline going; the storylines are what really keep people interested in someone and if they can make em work. Obviously, they COULD have had it work with Sheamus, but they did shit with him and he quickly became irrelevant just like he ALWAYS was, even when he had the fucking WWE title.

He created and got DX over? No... HBK got him over. Then DX got him over a little more. If you go watch those classic 98 Raws, Pac and the Outlaws were easily outpopping Hunter when they came out alone. Pac had the bronco buster and the Outlaws had their little promo bit before matches. Dogg was pretty under rated on the mic. Trips was the leader, but he was far from the driving force behind their success. If anything he seemed awkward in his character at the time, the way he talked and acted seemed really unnatural and forced. Thankfully his character was tweaked, because "DX" Triple H sucked compared to "Game" Trips. And after his association with the corporation, he was still widely viewed as a mid carder until they decided to have Rocky put him over then stick him in the mix with Foley and Austin. It still wasn't working, that's why they did the Helmsley-McMahon angle. So basically he went from middle of the pack straight to the top of the card in two months. And they kept him there. All I was saying is that while they're kinda doing it with Miz, he needs to go over huge against Cena, not with Rock assistance, A-Ri assistance, just he himself. And he should have gone over int he same manner against Orton back in January. That's all I was trying to say regarding that.

And I was also responding to this as well:

Btw, if you wanna continue on the HHH references and comparisons, guess who won at Wrestlemania (in a cheap manor) and lost the title at the next PPV to the top face as well? LOLOLOL. Where was the IWC to bitch about that? Wahhh HHH not getting a chance to carry the show and being booked poorly.

Are you talking about Mania 2000 ? Or Mania 18? In 2000 he was coming off a nice run of three months where Foley put him over HUGE and let him retire him and he was also given the huge concession of being the first HEEL to win the Mania main event and I believe the only heel to close the show on top. That's MAJOR, plus Rocky hadn't been champ for over a year at that point. So no need to cry there, it was beyond just and fair.As far as dropping the strap to Hogan, well I think that's where you can pinpoint the first major breaks in the WWE's hot period foundation and people should have been outraged. I figure you were talking about 2000.

Enzo, mere days ago, you dodged approaching the HHH-thing with me in any detail in another thread, but now you're stirring up the same debate with another person in another thread...? Hmmmmmmmmm...

Yup, ducked you like the nerdy kid ducks the bully in the lunchroom. Pfft, get out of here. This is a different argument, you were not even speculating, you were hypothesizing that Cena politics with the only evidence being Kennedy speculation. All the guy said was he suspects Cena had something to do with his firing. I speculate based on years of continued backstage reports, what not just one writer has said off screen, but three or four and if you read Jericho's new book he touches on how Trips politiicked a bit even before he was with the bosses daughter. And then there is what was seen in 2002 and 2003, RVD, Kane, and Booker were all immensely over and Raw was desperate for another top face behind HBK at the time, and what happened they were essentially squashed and left for dead. Then the Goldberg fiasco... do I even need to touch on this? Dude is in no shape to work, can barely walk, and doesn't even work any of the match, and still doesn't drop the belt to a guy who was HOTTTT? People wonder what happened to Goldberg in WWE...90% Triple H. And again, there is no "factual documentation" or however you need to validate these claims, but you put the reports together with what was seen on screen during that period and it's not even worth arguing your speculation with my speculation. There's more proof to what I have to say, you just have one complaint from one disgruntled employee. There was not much merit to your arguments, and I left it at what I left it at, 3 simple replies. But call it dodging or however you see it. I don't care, I'm a mod.

 

[...god...]

Fair enough, sorry, all I meant when I said that as he was the one kayfabe wise who was sought to have 'created' the new DX the next night when he came out and introduced Pac and the Outlaws, etc. It was kinda his claim to fame is sorta where I was getting to, not that he was the driving force of it. And yeah, I meant 2000, but Cena also hadn't been champ for exactly a year, he even said it that same night. Blah blah I haven't been champ for one whole year, if I don't win it tonight, then it's over for me. Also the saddest part about Sheamus losing was, he never even got a rematch, lmao. That was the driving complaint of his feud with Triple H, so from there on you could tell they didn't want him main eventing. He "put out" Triple H and got another run with the title which I can barely even remember, I think he lost it clean to Orton in that six-pack thing then Idk? He did the King of the Ring stuff which seemed like it was gonna keep him relevant and just for Triple H to come back then did nothing. He's also back in the main event now it seems on SD, btw, just got delayed a bit.

What'd Jericho say in his book about that stuff btw, don't remember.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

How Trips was somewhat welcoming when he first arrived, then Jericho did the Chyna program and gave her a very light bruise and he was talking down on Jericho to Vince behind Jericho's back. Jericho was the ass of DX's jokes on and off screen and he feels he lost alot of momentum because of the situation.

 

[Airfixx]

Yup, ducked you like the nerdy kid ducks the bully in the lunchroom. Pfft, get out of here. This is a different argument, you were not even speculating, you were hypothesizing that Cena politics with the only evidence being Kennedy speculation

The problem my hypothesis being?

All the guy said was he suspects Cena had something to do with his firing.

Yup.... Which as I pointed out was the first sign that the real Jonny C may not be the angelic figure he is portrayed to be on screen and in the media.

Why the fuck you insist on revisiting this is beyond me...

(I'm not regurgetating all that stuff again JUST for your benefit... Go re-read the other thead if you see fit.)

I speculate based on years of continued backstage reports, what not just one writer has said off screen, but three or four and if you read Jericho's new book he touches on how Trips politiicked a bit even before he was with the bosses daughter. And then there is what was seen in 2002 and 2003, RVD, Kane, and Booker were all immensely over and Raw was desperate for another top face behind HBK at the time, and what happened they were essentially squashed and left for dead.

...And it's those guys (that you AND I both mentioned.. Y'see I'm not 'hiding' from anything here!) that I was hoping to look at in more detail in the other thread:

Kane & RVD? .....They really gonna carry your show better than the guy that had finally got his interim shot at being the #1 guy... The same guy (HHH), incidentally, that a matter of months early was being talked about like a god for his dedication to the business and that way he handled his 1st quad tear yet still got jobbed to Hogan less than a month after Mania.

If RVD & Kane were TRULY as over as they'd need to be to add weight to your argument then they should be perfectly able to bounce back from dirty lose to a heel, title match or not.

Booker was squashed the way he was booked for Mania19, granted, but I've never understood the fuss about Booker. Midcarder IMO...

I'd buy this king of burials hype if he'd truly buried a bone-fide main eventer like Goldberg (...BUT see below) or Brock after the jobs that Taker did for him or similarly Cena or Batista later on down the line, but nope not seen anything of the sort ON-SCREEN to suabstantiate nor warrant THE EXTENT of the bad rep the guy has.

As I previously asked.... Show me a WWE/WWF champ since Hogan (aside from maybe Yoko) that hasn't eventually been bad-mouthed in the dirt sheets?

Then the Goldberg fiasco... do I even need to touch on this? Dude is in no shape to work, can barely walk, and doesn't even work any of the match, and still doesn't drop the belt to a guy who was HOTTTT? People wonder what happened to Goldberg in WWE...90% Triple H.

I think you might need to.... What exactly is this "fiasco" you speak of?

As I recall...

Goldberg debuts... Goes over Rock & Jericho....Gets title shot in EC @ Summerslam 03.... Eliminates 4 guys only for Flair to interfere and take him out with the hammer to allow HHH the win. At the next PPV is the the only person to get one over HHH/Evolution since his 12 moths of terror began, winning the title at Unforgiven against ALL odds and when he finally dropped the belt (to set up his WM fued with Brock) it was in a triple threat clusterfuck against 2 heels (HHH & Kane) with a shit load of interference from 3 more heels in the form of Evolution?

Tell me what part of any of that makes him look weak?

Additionaly, the guy was on a one year deal; you honestly think it's smart business to put him over HHH any stronger than they did, considering, by default, HHH had to carry Raw for the foreseeable after Goldberg had gone again?

As for HHH, grinding his way through a match injured to keep the an angel 'on the rails'... Where's the beef? If that was Taker he'd be getting rounds of applause from the boys & the IWC. Example... Taker came back to fued with Punk when HE was "HOTTT" and completely buried him, yet get's commended for his dedication to the business... Maybe not yourself, but the GENERAL concensus on this kinda shit reeks of double standards... Especially when you consider HHH has built/consolidated more ME-ers than anyone in the last 5+ years!).

And again, there is no "factual documentation" or however you need to validate these claims, but you put the reports together with what was seen on screen during that period and it's not even worth arguing your speculation with my speculation.

There you go again... Let go of the comparrison with Cena go for fucks sake... It won't add any weight to your beliefs about HHH or benefit the stage of the debate that we're at. A conclusion cannot be reached cos neithe rof us have a fucking crytsal ball.

There's more proof to what I have to say, you just have one complaint from one disgruntled employee.

"Proof"????? [Tries to resist your apparent penchant for taking things round in circles...]

I'm a mod.

LOL... I originally quoted you in my sig because I though it was a finely executed but of tongue in cheek humour, but sadly I was wrong wasn't I?

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

The problem my hypothesis being?

You hypothesized that Cena politics with little credible evidence. Said evidence being a bitter Kennedy conjecture. More than just a few writers have spoke about Triple H. A few right off the top of my head (besides what I've mentioned already) Bret Hart, Kurt Angle, Chyna, Randy Orton, Umaga and Scott Steiner. Sure some are bitter, like you said every champ has basically been bad mouthed. Only problem with that logic is that few have been complained about as much and in such a short period of time as Trips.

Why the fuck you insist on revisiting this is beyond me...

Because you took a pot shot at me and claimed I "dodged" an argument with you. Told you then, as I'm telling you now, it's a simple, two sided argument. There just happens to be much more evidence to support my speculation. I fail to understand why you insist on revisiting this, especially since the segue you used to reignite this flicker wasn't related to our debate in any way besides the name Triple H.

(I'm not regurgetating all that stuff again JUST for your benefit... Go re-read the other thead if you see fit.)

Never asked you to. You can sum it all up in a few thoughts. John Cena might politic because Kennedy thinks so. Triple H probably politics because many former co workers have said so and he has a position of power because he's in a marriage that is an obvious conflict of interest. But your of the mentality that if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit, even if his DNA is all over the scene. But hearsay is ok for convenience? Hmmmmmmm..

Kane & RVD? .....They really gonna carry your show better than the guy that had finally got his interim shot at being the #1 guy... The same guy (HHH), incidentally, that a matter of months early was being talked about like a god for his dedication to the business and that way he handled his 1st quad tear yet still got jobbed to Hogan less than a month after Mania.

I never said that. But when there is a HUGE gap in main event face talent on a heel heavy show, Trips squashing the top two permanent (remember, HBK wasn't a full timer nor was he expected to be at this time) faces on the flagship show in one month feuds is BAD for business, especially for a company that had always booked with top faces as the draws ever since Vince took over. Not only did it hurt the faces, but the other heels as well as they were given damaged goods to work with. Then there's the fact that Triple H has never proven to be a draw. Triple H could have always been the top heel, but he has never been a top guy in the since that a Flair, Hogan, Austin or Rock were top guys. He wanted to believe he was and Kurt Angle has touched on this before, how he views himself as an elitist and has frowned upon the younger guys. Remember when there was that legit beef between Orton and Umaga and Trips? That was the focus of it all, Trips is fuckin petty enough to cry about the colors Umaga's tights and knocks his work because of that. Yah, someone that petty would never hold anyone down or abuse his powers. Pffttt.

If RVD & Kane were TRULY as over as they'd need to be to add weight to your argument then they should be perfectly able to bounce back from dirty lose to a heel, title match or not.

Again, simple wrestling acumen. There was no depth at all on top faces at the time. Kane and RVD were as over as anyone was going to get on a post-Austin/Rock Raw. One month feuds and getting squashed doesn't do anyone any favors, not even Triple H. And that's why the numbers took their first major hit and why Goldberg had to be brought in.

Booker was squashed the way he was booked for Mania19, granted, but I've never understood the fuss about Booker. Midcarder IMO...

At that time he was over. Again, in a Raw lacking top face depth, he was a one match feud and again thrown into the midcard. Micarder IYO. Not what the majority thought back then.

I'd buy this king of burials hype if he'd truly buried a bone-fide main eventer like Goldberg (...BUT see below) or Brock after the jobs that Taker did for him or similarly Cena or Batista later on down the line, but nope not seen anything of the sort ON-SCREEN to suabstantiate nor warrant THE EXTENT of the bad rep the guy has.

So not working a single minute in the main event, coming in and sledge hammering the guy who was red hot isn't a burial? WHAT. STUPID. BOOKING. Fucking guy couldn't walk. Goldberg was HOT. And Trips STILL GOES OVER? That right there fucking killed his monstrous heat. That was not "Finger Poke of Doom" bad, but it was just bad. BAD. Simple booking 101 has Goldberg, the HOT commodity, going over the injured champ. Injured former champ plays the "I was hurt" heel schtick while he heals his injury. Fakes the injury and attacks the guy. Sets up a solid feud. Goldberg goes over again to return the favor down the road.
Then there are the issues of RVD, Orton, Kane and Booker T, but you can play the "they weren't over enough to be top guys" card to add weight to your argument without mentioning that simple little piece of logic that maybe they could have been over enough to be top guys had the "top guy" put them over. Maybe be professional enough to extend the generosity and courtesy shown to him by Foley, Rock and Austin, since he wasn't over enough to be a top guy until they broke him in.

What exactly is this "fiasco" you speak of?

As I recall...

Goldberg debuts... Goes over Rock & Jericho....Gets title shot in EC @ Summerslam 03.... Eliminates 4 guys only for Flair to interfere and take him out with the hammer to allow HHH the win. At the next PPV is the the only person to get one over HHH/Evolution since his 12 moths of terror began, winning the title at Unforgiven against ALL odds and when he finally dropped the belt (to set up his WM fued with Brock) it was in a triple threat clusterfuck against 2 heels (HHH & Kane) with a shit load of interference from 3 more heels in the form of Evolution?

Tell me what part of any of that makes him look weak?

See above. Go watch that Chamber match. You will be hard pressed to find a crowd lose air the way that crowd did. And it wasn't because of Trips' effectiveness as a heel, it was a stupid fucking booking move and everyone in the audience knew they got shafted. From there Goldberg's whole run was a complete fucking mess and he was never, ever able to regain that immense heat he got by going over consummate pros like Jericho and Rocky.

Additionaly, the guy was on a one year deal; you honestly think it's smart business to put him over HHH any stronger than they did, considering, by default, HHH had to carry Raw for the foreseeable after Goldberg had gone again?

Triple H wouldn't have to "carry" Raw if he had done good business with the faces, he'd have the workload split fairly. And he wasn't a big enough draw to "carry" the show anyways. The numbers on Raw were basically in steady decline from 02- till Cena arrived. Bad business abounded

under this cAs for HHH, grinding his way through a match injured to keep the an angel 'on the rails'... Where's the beef? If that was Taker he'd be getting rounds of applause from the boys & the IWC. Example... Taker came back to fued with Punk when HE was "HOTTT" and completely buried him, yet get's commended for his dedication to the business... Maybe not yourself, but the GENERAL concensus on this kinda shit reeks of double standards... Especially when you consider HHH has built/consolidated more ME-ers than anyone in the last 5+ years!).

Standing in a cell for the entire match constitutes "grinding through a match". Then he went over, killing the top faces immense heat in the process Taker gets props because he has been the locker room leader basically the past twenty years while Trips kept people under the glass ceiling. That was ANOTHER big report coming out around that time; that Taker would rather stay on Smackdown because he preferred the absence of politics. And why Booker T was upset that he got moved back to Raw in 07 and basically went from WHC to squash fodder to a Trips return. Coincidence that two top guys felt that way? Hmmmm...

There you go again... Let go of the comparrison with Cena go for fucks sake... It won't add any weight to your beliefs about HHH or benefit the stage of the debate that we're at. A conclusion cannot be reached cos neithe rof us have a fucking crytsal ball.

But that is the root of this argument. Again, don't know where you're trying to take this. Remember, your hypotheseizing that Cena politics based on what Kennedy said. I'm speculating that Triple H politicked based on the countless reports and testimonials of former co workers and what was seen on screen. My conclusion is more feasible than yours based on what is purportedly evidence in the wrestling gossip world. And if you are arguing anything else, I don't know what the fuck it is.

"Proof"????? [Tries to resist your apparent penchant for taking things round in circles...]

Tries to avoid your penchant for loaded language and convenience based arguments. But had I, I wouldn't be posting this.

LOL... I originally quoted you in my sig because I though it was a finely executed but of tongue in cheek humour, but sadly I was wrong wasn't I?

LOL. No it was a finely executed bit of tongue in cheek humor, sadly it unintentionally trolled you ever so slightly.

 

[...god...]

How Trips was somewhat welcoming when he first arrived, then Jericho did the Chyna program and gave her a very light bruise and he was talking down on Jericho to Vince behind Jericho's back. Jericho was the ass of DX's jokes on and off screen and he feels he lost alot of momentum because of the situation.

post direct citation references (page number + chapter) plz or it's not true, thx.

 

[Airfixx]

post direct citation references (page number + chapter) plz or it's not true, thx.

Funny, i was gonna return to this thread for that reason... I just read Jericho's book (at the time of that post, I hadn't) and he says re HHH:

At one point, early on, HHH pulled him aside and said "You're getting lots of heat backstage because you act like you know everything..." and that in hindsight he was right.

he was talking down on Jericho to Vince behind Jericho's back"

He doesn't say that, nor does he outright accuse HHH of being behind the Chyna's bruise scenario.


Jericho throughout was also blaming himself for his early push stalling, because a) he debuted trying to play the wrong kind of heel to fit in the bad-ass natured Attitude Era and that b) he had some dodgy matches at key times when he was in the early 'prove yourself' stages of his run.


[Page references to follow]

 

[monkeystyle]

If you're going to post page references please don't selectively pick and choose what you want to be seen. I've read the book too (currently out on loan so I can't double czech for page numbers) and Enzo is right.

Granted there is a lot of hearsay and conjecture when it comes to HHH but here's the deal. This isn't some mass bitter wrestler conspiracy designed to make HHH look like an ass. When you have that many different people all essentially saying the same thing independently of one another you can either recognize that there is likely truth in what they are saying or you can continue to bury your fingers in your ears to block it out while you lovingly bathe HHH's balls with your tongue.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

^^^Serious truth.

He doesn't directly say it because he cant . He's not going to burn his bridge with the only company that will pay him what he makes. But he goes into the meeting with Vince after hhh has been in there, gets mad dogged by the guy then gets chewed out by the boss for doing what the boss told him to do. Hmmmmm....then trips taking shots at the guy on screen, jericho walks into hhh's dx buddies crackin and laughin at his expense. Hmmmmm. What woul you think as a third person part, not as a person grasping for straws in a wrestling forum debate? That smurf was talkin behind his back and politickin a bit. Definitely not gonna site pages, checked it out at the library. It is what it is and what has been reported has been reported for reasons besides trying to bury the future boss.

 

[...god...]

i believe it, i just wanted to see. That, and I don't remember the DX jokes.

 

[monkeystyle]

i believe it, i just wanted to see. That, and I don't remember the DX jokes.

There was one I recall where DX is doing a skit with a homeless guy holding a sign that said "Will work for food" and they made a crack about how the homeless guy was probably a better worker than Jericho.

There were others but that's the one that springs to mind right now.