Are the days of faces and heels coming to an end?

[TMBS]

Like, I can just see them going "alright we're gonna make Jason Jordan Kurt Angles son and he's gonna be moving forward as a babyface" during their meetings

Because that is the structure that wrestling and WWE is built on. By Jordan turning face and getting a push he will have to knock someone else off the ranking and take their spot. Do you want to knock off Sami Sayn the loveable good guy and make him lose to Jordan. Sami has fallen to a random push and would be stuck with nothing to do. So lets say he fights back at Jordan and gets his spot back. Now we have just gone full circle.

But if they were to keep fighting. Would you really consider both to be good guys? You would pick one or the other to be the more bitter. Problem is the babyfaces do great at events and TV. So when a face starts losing his good guy cred his popularity could fall, like Punk 2014. Sure you get a Neville who does better as a heel. There is plenty of non heel/face matchups out there all the time. But the problem is that doesn't make for regular entertaining material. People want drama and to get that you have to throw some hurdles in each others way. Every story has a good guy and a bad guy because that is where the entertainment comes from.

I love a good ol fashion handshake match but I dont want to see 10 a night. There has to be a clash between the two to make the matches mean something in WWE. It is a TV drama. It just isn't good TV to not have this backlog of plans for making people seem good or bad. It is all about influencing the audience and putting on a show.

Does UFC have good guys and bad guys? You are damn right and that is how they sell all their fights. It is a formula for success and clearly it continues to work.

 

[SWL]

obviously the crowd is allowed to pick sides. The idea was that the company shouldn't bother with going "this is how we're gonna make them like this guy" and just put them out there. If Jordan and Zayn were to have a match, they'd immediately turn towards Zayn (which they kinda already did last Raw when they booed Jordan). So in the crowd's mind, they're done with Jordan but Jordan shouldn't be phased by it and just move on. It's hard to put into words but what WWE does most of the time is writing the character first and then the situation even though it should always be the situation first and then trying to figure out how said character reacts to being in that situation.
It's the typical "put yourself in _____'s situation" and then you have a human storyline that isn't necessary a heel turn or a change of heart but rather something people would normally do.

 

[TMBS]

I get what you mean, its a tricky concept to explain and to relate to in an actual good point. But again, it is a simply an ideal in the wrestling world to help keep the wheels turning.

 

[Grievous 3D]

this is all I got regarding that, the rest were just hints at Reigns again (you really love bringing him up for someone who doesn't watch him)

Only because you seem to go out of your way to defend him...
which I personally find hilarious...

Or...you just stop the discussion outright by shouting his name...
or telling people to "Chill, Relax...its just Ice-Cream"

And just in advance, don't make this about Roman again, thank you.

Why don't you actually learn to have a proper discussion instead
of putting your fingers in your ears when someone types something
you don't like.

And don't tell me what I can and cannot type...you're not boss of
me...and thankfully you never will be.

So...to sum up from what I've read in this thread...and this is a very
simple overview:

"Who cares who is the good guy or the bad guy...I just want to see
two or more people punching each other!"

Is that about right?

 

[TMBS]

Only because you seem to go out of your way to defend him...
which I personally find hilarious...

Or...you just stop the discussion outright by shouting his name...
or telling people to "Chill, Relax...its just Ice-Cream"


Why don't you actually learn to have a proper discussion instead
of putting your fingers in your ears when someone types something
you don't like.

And don't tell me what I can and cannot type...you're not boss of
me...and thankfully you never will be.

So...to sum up from what I've read in this thread...and this is a very
simple overview:

"Who cares who is the good guy or the bad guy...I just want to see
two or more people punching each other!"

Is that about right?

hey, this was pretty hypocritical and contradicting to your point.

 

[SWL]

"Who cares who is the good guy or the bad guy...I just want to see
two or more people punching each other!"

Is that about right?

yes.. that's what wrestling is. 2 or more dudes (or women) people are invested in, putting it all out there to be the best in this industry. Hell, it worked for Charlotte and Becky if you want an example that connects to you.

and the Roman thing was just a request btw :emoji_wink: I didn't know you were gonna give me a lesson about free speech and all. You do you, girl. I'm just trying to keep this thread on topic

 

[Grievous 3D]

yes.. that's what wrestling is. 2 or more dudes (or women) people are invested in, putting it all out there to be the best in this industry.

But if no one is a heel or a face...then how can the audience be properly invested?

How can you tell a basic story if everyone involved is in one giant moral grey area?

and the Roman thing was just a request btw

Sounded a little bit more like a demand than a request...and I only decided to use
Roman as an example as the original statement was made by Braun Strowman...
and it seems like a "reaction statement" made because he is currently feuding with
Reigns.

I actually believe the WWE has forgotten how to book "face characters" and
spends too much time "generating heat" but...that's just my own opinion.

I didn't know you were gonna give me a lesson about free speech and all.

Oh...it wasn't a lesson...think of it as a...request...

I'm just trying to keep this thread on topic

Okay...then why did you go on about the numbers comment I made
instead of the statements I made about the actual topic of the thread?

But hey...try not to "overthink it' and just chill bro...

 

[SWL]

But if no one is a heel or a face...then how can the audience be properly invested?

I don't know, you tell me how the Summerslam main event works out so well. Or how Lesnar/Joe worked out so well. I mean there has to be some reason why they keep booking those 4 so strong and I don't think it's because they're not drawing.. I'm guessing it's the opposite

 

[Death Walker]

I don't know, you tell me how the Summerslam main event works out so well. Or how Lesnar/Joe worked out so well. I mean there has to be some reason why they keep booking those 4 so strong and I don't think it's because they're not drawing.. I'm guessing it's the opposite

Exactly, I think people are forgetting that there were actual storylines and matches for heel vs heel/face vs face back in the days. It was the stories, the writing, the betrayals after betrayals, etc. You never knew what you was going to see on Raw or SmackDown other than the baseline to a few stories. Look at Cena vs The Rock, The Rock vs Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Undertaker vs Batista, Triple H vs Orton, Lesnar vs Goldberg......these matches weren't simply face vs heel, it more about who you personally wanted to come out as the winner and as always whenever there's a triple threat or fatal 4 way or larger match you can't always rely on the face vs heel logic.

 

[Grievous 3D]

Or how Lesnar/Joe worked out so well.

Well...from what I remember most of crowd wanted Joe to win...
and he also received a face pop/theme song chant on RAW the
next night.

I don't know, you tell me how the Summerslam main event works out so well.

I won't be able to because I won't be watching the match...

I mean there has to be some reason why they keep booking those 4 so strong

Well...Lesnar has wrestled one match since Wrestlemania...and was nearly
choked out...so I wouldn't call that strong booking...

Strowman was injured for a time...but has no doubt looked the strongest...
in fact apart from a clean loss at Fastlane his booking has been perfect.

Joe started off shaky but has been looking better with each week that goes by...

and I'm not going to mention my thoughts and opinions on the other guy involved
as it may cause some people to wet their diapers or point out I can't have an
opinion because I don't watch the matches he's in...even if I can read an online
summary and still get the bullet points of what exactly is going on,

I mean there has to be some reason why they keep booking those 4 so strong and I don't think it's because they're not drawing.. I'm guessing it's the opposite

Meaning...what exactly?

 

[SWL]

Well...from what I remember most of crowd wanted Joe to win...
and he also received a face pop/theme song chant on RAW the
next night.

but he's not a face and isn't getting booked as a face. That's the entire point.

Meaning...what exactly?

they make the company a lot of moneeey. A lot of dollars, the green thing, the number on WWE's bank account that keeps on rising. You might have heard of it. The one thing that keeps this show running for that matter. They draw a crowd without being babyfaces or pandering to any crowd, they just go in there, put on a great show and get people invested. Nobody in this company gets far if they're not helping the company make the same green the company's paying them

 

[Brother Loathe]

I think the biggest reason both wrestlers and fans don't think there is or there should be faces or heels anymore is because everyone is too scared to have an actual heel so everyone just defaults to the cool heel babyface which is a double oxymoron in of itself.

For example, when Jericho tore up the flag on a live event in Brazil, he immediately had to make a statement and apologise or when Rollins was the cowardly heel people were bitching that he would run away too often which was precisely the point.

For me, you'd need heels and baby faces otherwise what's the point of two guys fighting if they both like each other, the audience loves them and the commentary team loves them. You don't have to have literal baby faces and heels other than 90% of the matches but the only time babyface vs babyface has worked is when it's for a title or one of them is acting a bit more heelish than the other or the fans favour one a bit more e.g. The Rock/John Cena, CM Punk/John Cena etc

 

[¡Tranquilo!]

I think the biggest reason both wrestlers and fans don't think there is or there should be faces or heels anymore is because everyone is too scared to have an actual heel so everyone just defaults to the cool heel babyface which is a double oxymoron in of itself.

For example, when Jericho tore up the flag on a live event in Brazil, he immediately had to make a statement and apologise or when Rollins was the cowardly heel people were bitching that he would run away too often which was precisely the point.

I don't think it's necessarily wrestlers fault if they don't get any heel heat for doing heel shit. People like villains because on average they have more personality than the hero. Look at Samoa Joe, Kevin Owens, Bray Wyatt, all heels that get cheered not because they aren't doing good heel work but rather they're simply good characters.

For me, you'd need heels and baby faces otherwise what's the point of two guys fighting if they both like each other, the audience loves them and the commentary team loves them. You don't have to have literal baby faces and heels other than 90% of the matches but the only time babyface vs babyface has worked is when it's for a title or one of them is acting a bit more heelish than the other or the fans favour one a bit more e.g. The Rock/John Cena, CM Punk/John Cena etc

All wrestlers should have one goal in common and that's to get ahead to either win championships or get into a main event spot. Just making money in general and sure they could be friends in the process but that shouldn't stop them from trying to advance their careers.

 

[Snowman1]

I think the company is confused on the topic, as are the fans.

I always go back to Seth Rollins. Before the Ambrose storyline, Triple H turned on him and gave the belt to Kevin Owens, and Seth was the vengeful anti-hero of the story... Which then Triple H left before they established Seth as being someone likable, and he just kinda floundered getting the same scripts that have done so much for Roman Reigns. There's the problem of course...

Before that, he was one of the most forced characters? Idk. Seth's performances as the Authority's chosen one were solid and all, but the character was both so overdone and see-through, and in the ring I couldn't buy that this guy who was doing flying knees and multiple planchas and Phoenix splashes and Falcon Arrows was some pussy who never wanted to fight. It was all so see-through that Rollins always came across to the fans as just a good wrestler, on top of stuff like Kane giving Seth MITB, leaving fans to wonder why Kane is running in in 2014 instead of seeing why he did and understanding that was Seth's reward for thechairshot heard round the world. The face/heel dynamic did him no favors (but helped Ambrose immensely while feuding with him) until this Ambrose storyline gave the fans a storyline reason to really cheer for the reformed sellout.

Still, on the flipside, Sami Zayn and - especially - Daniel Bryan. Both great wrestlers and solid talkers, got over to an extent with just that, but both got such amazing underdog momentum that it gave them so much star power based off the fans' love of them. There's a place for them...

But I always say, even though the show is kinda floundering and people aren't as hyped about it, Lucha Underground is more of the blueprint. It's a lot easier to just write characters, some obviously sympathetic and cool, some monsterous, and write them into situations that suit said characters without the fans even knowing "faces and heels" exist. keep it organic and let kayfabe live on!

Also for WWE it should help their match quality problem. Most of the best wrestlers are babyfaces since it's 2017 and it's easy to cheer for the best wrestlers, but they're so pigeonholed into face vs heel ALWAYS that we're getting far too many star vs scrub matchups, particu!arly on the SD side. And with WWE's match structure that doesn't help matters much

Don't even know what the point of this was but yay, paragraphs

 

[Solid Snake]

Good vs evil will always be a thing in wrestling otherwise the feuds and the fighting would be senseless and boring.
I do think people should have the option to choose who is what though and take sides.
Like if I feel John Cena's argument or "reason" for doing what he did is wrong, I would side with the other guy.
(and by context the other guy would be the "face")