Triple H Debate

[Mick Foley is Still Good]

So, apparently I offended a few 'intelligent' wrestling fans with a comment I made about relative career-squasher, Triple H. I was told to grow up by some; others called me stupid for my supposedly outlandish opinion. But of course, once I post my rebuttal to these smarks, what happens? Silence. And by gawd, I'm blood-thirsty, so someone give me a good argument over Triple H, dammit!

 

[Mick Foley is Still Good]

"Triple H is merely where he is on the roster based on his ties with the McMahon family, you HHH marks had best be savvy enough to not deny that. RAW was pulling ungodly numbers in ratings, talking 8's and 9's, but once Stephanie McMahon gained control of the creative team, she shoved herself and HHH down everyone's throats, and now look what happened. A 3.5 is considered heavenly. Ridiculous.

As far as Triple H 'making' Orton, Batista, and Cena, that is somewhat true, mainly with Batista. I would consider the 'maker' of John Cena to be JBL, who, after a steady almost-year-long reign with wins over Big Show, Eddie Guerrero, and Kurt Angle, dropped the title to John Cena.

Now, as far as making Orton goes, I think Orton made Orton. After his incredible Intercontiental Championship reign with phenomenal matches with Rob Van Dam, Edge, etc., he finally got himself a World Title reign. How long did he hold it? 28 days. Who defeated him for it? Triple H. And for the next several months, Triple H annihilated Orton in their title matches, leaving him to be unworthy of a main event status after being squashed so much. He even entered a stupid low-class feud with Christian (I think it was Christian...). The man who was the World's Heavyweight Champion... reduced to low mid-card feuds, all after a feud with HHH. Sad really... at least Undertaker brought him back where he belonged.

But you make a good case for Batista... who defeated Triple H cleanly, what, three times in succession? Of course, making Batista have more TV time is not an admirable thing to do if you ask me, lol.

But all of this happened in 2005/2006. Who has Triple H put over lately? He's continued to be shoved down our throats as quite possibly the worst babyface on RAW, destroying Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase on a weekly basis, and leveraging himself into every single WrestleMania main event, no matter what the initial feud may be. Ridiculous. Open your eyes, Triple H marks. Open your eyes."

 

[Next Big Thing]

I neg repped you for being stupid, and I seen your response and didn't respond, so obviously I'm one of those people you mentioned. There was a reason I didn't respond though. It's not because your argument was so great that I had nothing to counter it, it's because your argument was so stupid I didn't think I should bother wasting my time on it. But since you decided to make a thread about it, I'll give you a response.

I see you just copy and pasted what you said in the other thread, and your very first paragraph is exactly what I am talking about and why I didn't respond.

"Triple H is merely where he is on the roster based on his ties with the McMahon family, you HHH marks had best be savvy enough to not deny that. RAW was pulling ungodly numbers in ratings, talking 8's and 9's, but once Stephanie McMahon gained control of the creative team, she shoved herself and HHH down everyone's throats, and now look what happened. A 3.5 is considered heavenly. Ridiculous.

To say that Triple H is the reason that the ratings are in the 3's today instead of the 7's and 8's that they got during the attitude era is by far one of the dumbest things I have ever read on an Internet wrestling forum. There was absolutely nothing the WWE could do to sustain those rating because a good portion of those fans were just hoping on the bandwagon while wrestling was the in thing. But like any fad, something new comes along and those people that hoped on the last craze, hope right onto the next in thing. So to sit here and say that if it wasn't for Triple H the ratings would still be where they were back in 99 and 00 is absolutely idiotic.

 

[Mick Foley is Still Good]

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Based on your response, I assume you're around the age of eight. I'll dumb my vocabulary down enough for you to understand.

After the self-destruction of ECW and WCW, WWE happened to be pulling phenomenal numbers in the 7's and 8's, unthinkable in this generation. WCW and ECW collapsed, and WWE became the only source for high-quality mainstream wrestling. At the time, Stephanie McMahon gained control of WWE Creative, and shoved herself, the McMahon family, and Triple H down everyone's throats. And what happened? PEOPLE JUST STOPPED WATCHING WRESTLING!

So to say Triple H isn't the downfall of what WWE could have easily capitalized on is quite hypocritical of your own opinion of me. To say they just 'hopped on the next bandwagon' is insulting to your intelligence. For your own sake, if you're going to make incredibly stupid remarks like that again, I suggest you stray away from this thread. Until then, enjoy being the mirror image of what you claim I am, and bask in the glow of the simple, unadulterated truth.

 

[Quintastic One]

So having Vince McMahon and Shane McMahon during smackdown and RAW main events wasn't shoving the McMahons down our throats? So Vince McMahon winning the Royal Rumble, winning the world title, and fueding with Steve Austin in several PPV main events wasn't shoving the McMahons down our throats? Shane McMahon winning the Cruiserweight title, Stephanie winning the womans title? Virtually every major Main Event storyline of the entire attitude era focused centrally around the McMahons?

This was all during the time that RAW and Smackdown were scoring those 7's and 8's by the way.

So I assume all that must of been Stephanies fault too right? In that case no matter how ridiculous of a statement your making, you would have to credit her for both the rise and the fall of the ratings of WWE, which is just ridiculous.

WWE's ratings fell because the WWE utterly horribly butchered the WCW/ECW Invasion Angle. Absolute undeniable truth. After the Monday Night Wars officially ended and the fans truly saw the true colors of the WWE and how instead of developing a great storyline they wanted instead to just filter in all the WWE guys to the enemies side was evidence that wrestling was dead.

Vince McMahon was declared the true victor of the wrestling empire, and people lost interest. The ratings plummeted, and WWE has been lucky to keep the 3.0 that are still watching.

To blame it on Stephanie and Triple H with your sould argument being "THEY WERE SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS" all in caps lock as well, without any supporting arguments for your statement, is self defeating.

I wasn't apart of your original Triple H argument, but being that all you can do is sling mud at those who oppose your opinion rather than be an intelligent debator, gives you all the proof you need as to why they never replied back to you in the first place.

 

[MikeRaw]

-Ratings fell once the initial excitement of the invasion was over. The product as a whole was pretty awful for a while, thus why ratings fell. On top of that, the ratings during 2003-2005 were pretty bad, due to Austin and Rock both leaving suddenly, at around the same time, and then right after WM20, both Goldberg and Lesnar leaving. That's 4 of the top stars leaving within a year. If Triple H weren't around, ratings likely would've been worse.
-Triple H is the reason you even have anyone other than him in the main events today. If he weren't there, we'd likely have Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, and Kane in the main events. He made Batista and Randy Orton, handpicking them, and making them be pushed. That also opened WWEs eyes to see that new stars needed to be made, which sparked them to push others, such as John Cena, and make new stars.
-Who has he put over lately? Who the fuck cares? He hasn't put over any new up and comers, but show me someone who deserves it. There's no young up and coming heel who deserves to be made into the nnext main event star, so there's not anyone that he needs to put over. In the meantime, he's done what he's supposed to do... Draw crowds, and be the top face.
-If the fans didn't want him, they'd boo him. If he was shoved down our throats, fans wouldn't chant "Pedigree" or "Triple H" every time he appeared. Sure, he's booed 2 times a year at most, but for every time he's booed, I'll show you 999 times when he's cheered. If the fans were sick of him, he'd have gotten the Cena treatment by now...
-Triple H was a 6 time champion before marrying Steph, and a 6 time champion before even dating her. Therefore, your theory of him being pushed and shoved at us because of Stephanie is false. In fact, if he hadn't married Steph, he probably would've had MORE title reigns by now, because they wouldn't have to fear critisism of him being unfairly pushed.

 

[Next Big Thing]

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Based on your response, I assume you're around the age of eight. I'll dumb my vocabulary down enough for you to understand.

Actually I’m 7 and a half. I have to make this post quick because my bed time is at 9:30.

After the self-destruction of ECW and WCW, WWE happened to be pulling phenomenal numbers in the 7's and 8's, unthinkable in this generation. WCW and ECW collapsed, and WWE became the only source for high-quality mainstream wrestling.

By collapsed, are referring to when the WWE purchased both of those companies, or when they were on the decline? Because if you are talking about when they purchased WCW and ECW, the WWE was getting ratings around 5.

At the time, Stephanie McMahon gained control of WWE Creative, and shoved herself, the McMahon family, and Triple H down everyone's throats. And what happened? PEOPLE JUST STOPPED WATCHING WRESTLING!

There were two significant declines in ratings in 2000 and 2001, and neither can be blamed on Triple H. The first was in September 2000 when they moved to TNN. Their ratings dropped from the 6’s to the 5’s, and they never regained those viewers. The second decline happened in 2001 around May. The ratings dropped into the 4’s and while they did go back up in the 5’s for a brief time during the summer, they declined back into the 4’s during the fall. Since Triple H was out with an injury during the time of this ratings decline, I don’t see anyway that you can blame that on him.

So to say Triple H isn't the downfall of what WWE could have easily capitalized on is quite hypocritical of your own opinion of me.

So there was no more WCW or ECW, and Triple H gets injured about 2 months after this happens and is out for 8 months, but he’s the reason that the WWE wasn’t able to capitalize on the situation and gain even more viewers? Please explain how that is even remotely Triple H’s fault.

To say they just 'hopped on the next bandwagon' is insulting to your intelligence.

It’s the truth. Wrestling got really hot for a few years. People that had never watched wrestling before started to watch wrestling because it suddenly became cool. It was the in thing. But after a short time, it gets old and something new comes along, and those people that started watching when it was the in thing stop watching. That sums up what a bandwagon is. Wrestling got hot because you had guys flipping people off, telling people to suck it, tons of cursing and half naked women running around every week. They were pushing the envelope. It was edgy, people thought it was cool and it was shocking to see this stuff happening. Yet after seeing it so many times, the shock wears off. It’s no longer edgy, it just becomes the norm. It’s the same reason that a show like Jerry Springer got so hot. It was shocking to see the stuff that was happening on his show, yet after a while that shock goes away and so does the audience. Hell, I’m pretty sure Jerry Springer still makes new episodes yet it’s not even a quarter as popular as it once was because people hoped off that bandwagon a long time ago.

For your own sake, if you're going to make incredibly stupid remarks like that again, I suggest you stray away from this thread. Until then, enjoy being the mirror image of what you claim I am, and bask in the glow of the simple, unadulterated truth.

The truth that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about?

I really don’t know anything at all about you since you’re a new member, but it seems like you’re a fairly intelligent person. You have put together a well written post with some good spelling and grammar, so I don’t think you’re a complete idiot. I just think you’re very misinformed and have an incredibly ridiculous theory on this topic.

 

[Chuck Taylor's Grenade]

The reason WWE was pulling in 5s and 6s (that's more accurate than saying 8s or 9s because the only thing that got above an 8 was Rock and Mankind's this is your life segment) was because of a little show called Nitro. The monday night wars is responsible for creating and harvesting the wrestling boom of the 90s. Once the monday night wars were over Vince had nobody to compete against so he got complacent and figured since he was the top dog he could throw any crap on the tv and people would watch it. Not to mention the epic fail that was the invasion. WWE could have made millions upon millions on that but instead the WWE's stars decided to be greedy and hog their spots (which is kind of ironic if you think about it) which led to the WCW/ECW alliance looking like blueberries who couldn't clench their fists without shitting themselves. So Triple H isn't the only person responsible for the downturn in WWE's ratings.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

He was awesome in 2000-01, 2005-2007. Awesome. So he ain't all bad. I think he would be best served to help build new talent the way Austin/Rock/Foley gave him the rub that made him a star. He's done everything there is to do so why not give back?

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

He's done everything there is to do so why not give back?

And hasn't him? He has done Batista, Cena and Orton, because while the guy making this thread says JBL made Cena, JBL made Cena a main eventer, HHH gave Cena the true main event at Mania and clearly made him the man in WWE, just as he did to Batista the year before and what he has been doing with Orton as of now (with the feud, not exactly the jobs)

You just can't go around jobbing to everybody that this week seems promising. If you do that, in no time you are a 2006-2007 Ric Flair.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

^^^^^ Eh, I don't think he made Cena. Cena was THE man as soon as they turned him face. He was super over way before that match and Cena was the champ going into that match. JBL didn't do jack either, he just layed down. Cena turning face made Cena. Trips didn't make Cena nothing, Cena got Trips a nice WM payday if anything.

He helped Orton as much as any legend that layed down for Orton. Orton's gimmick of Legend Killer and subsequent push got him over. His feud with Orton helped cement Orton, but it didn't make him, having plenty of legends lay down for the guy did. Just like Rock, Foley and Austin did for Hunter from 99-01.

The only guy that Triple H REALLY MADE was Batista. I won't argue that. And he has laid down for Randy, but not before having wrestled twice before doing the job, so he's made Randy look rather weak.
And before making Batista, he buried Kane, RVD and Booker T, then he did fair business then got injured and when he came back he squashed Umaga and Booker T, then got drafted to Smackdown where he quickly squashed Edge in a micro-feud. So, really, does the one legit rub really make up for the burials and squashing?

 

[Airfixx]

^^^Since when the hell did Edge get squashed by HHH????

He got a distraction assisted victory in a match where up until that point, Edge was, typically, countering all HHHs moves.


Also, how exactly do you think Cena blessed HHH with a WM ME spot @ 22.... You don't think the #1 heel in the company would have been in the ME of WM if it wasn't for Cena?

More generally...

I've never undertood the commonly heard "buried Kane, RVD & Booker" claims....

The guy spends his first (and only) spell at the absolute top of the company and ya'll expect WWE to have him lose all his first fueds???? LOL ...Blue.

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

He has made Orton and Cena. Why? True, unlike Batista, which was made a main eventer by Batista, they were already main eventers. But Cena, he was a main eventer, not the absolute face of the company. Triple H's job made John Cena the face of the WWE, the absolute marquee in the entire company.

Same goes for Orton. Randy has never been the centerpiece of the WWE Universe...until now, thanks to his involvement with Triple H. Not even HUlk Hogan gave Orton that spot. Randy is now the most important heel in the WWE booking wise, and that's thanks to his feuds with Triple H.

 

[Airfixx]

Randy has never been the centerpiece of the WWE Universe... Until now, thanks to his involvement with Triple H. Not even HUlk Hogan gave Orton that spot. Randy is now the most important heel in the WWE booking wise, and that's thanks to his feuds with Triple H.

[Applauds politely]

...Following on, (attn: Enzo) think back to all the Legend Killer matches. How many, aside his match with Foley, left any kind of lasting impression?



Bearing in mind BOOKING fucked up Randy's split from Evolution (Which I think was rushed due to Lesnar's 'youngest world champ' tag), it's been quite evident (and presumably also in part thanks to his backstage behavioural shenanigans) that they've gone the slow-build route on Orton's re-push... It's appeared to be HHHs special project over the last 2 years; to draw out all of Orton's potential as a main eventer and overcome the various set-backs to Orton's career circa-late 04 thru early 07.



Also, no-one's seen fit to comment on the pivotal contribution HHH made towards Jeff Hardy's ME push.

 

[The Rated R CMStar]

Yeah, then again, people are too busy somehow blaming HHH for burying TBK and Shelton Benjamin instead of crediting him of making Jeff Hardy and Kozlov credible title challengers.

...and before you go and bash Kozlov, let me remind you how half of you were talking not so long ago about how Vladimir Kozlov wouldn't be that bad of a choice to be WWE Champion.