GPWT Round 1: Bret Hart (5) -vs- Curt Hennig (11)

[Veritas]

Who is the Greatest Professional Wrestler of All Time?​

Round 1
​

Bret "Hitman" Hart -vs- "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig

View attachment 999　​

Bret Hart

​

- 5x WWE World Heavyweight Champion
- 2x WCW World Heavyweight Champion
- 1991 & 1993 WWE King of the Ring

Bret Hart placed 5th in the IWF 50 Greatest Wrestling Superstars of All Time, scoring a 314/450.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bret_Hart
　View attachment 1000
Curt Hennig

- 1x AWA World Heavyweight Champion
- 2x WWE Intercontinental Champion
- 1x WCW US Heavyweight Champion

Mr. Perfect finished 11th in the IWF 50 Greatest Wrestling Superstars of All Time, tying Kurt Angle with a score of 245/450.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curt_Hennig​

 

[Veritas]

I voted with Mikey....

I'll explain why later but I challenge someone, anyone to give me 4 different good reasons as to why I'm wrong first.

And "Bret Hart is a better wrestler." isn't a good enough reason.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

Honestly, these are the two most over rated people in this tourney. 95% of the people who think Hennig is great aren't even aware of his true greatness. He had so few good matches in the WWF, and that is what 99% of the people who voted for him are aware of, that it almost insults me that he's even in this. He had one really excellent match, incidentally against Bret Hart, and another really good match and that too was against Bret Hart. And he had an ok match with a chunky HBK and a really fun brawl with HBK on an early Raw. Outside of that, he had some awesome vignettes and a good run as Flair's bitch. Then came the hideous WCW run in which the only, and I mean only good match he had was he and Windham as the West Texas Rednecks turned back the clock and hung in with a prime Malenko and Benoit in a very solid match. So basically what I'm saying is that in the 90's HENNIG WASN'T A FRACTION AS GOOD AS PEOPLE WANT TO THINK HE WAS.

Hennig was great at one time. Truly great. His greatest matches came against a man named Nick Bockwinkel, someone that if you are unaware of, you should make yourself aware of. When Hennig took the AWA title from him, that was truly the AWA's last hurrah before becoming basically an obsolete shell of it's former self. Want to see a classic match, go track down their classic one hour draw, then the follow up where Hennig wins it. That's awesome and it trumps anything he ever did as Mr. Perfect.

And I don't particularly care for Bret Hart, but he was a better wrestler than Hennig. The fact that Hennigs best WWF matches are against Hart testifies to that. Bret's feuds with HBK and Owen are timeless classics. Owen-Bret is the greatest opening match in wrestling history, their cage match 4 months later changed the way people approached cage matches. And then there's Bret-Austin, Bret basically minted Austin. Such an intense, blood feud, it even trumps the awesomeness of Hennig-Bock. Austin-Hart @ Mania 13? Absolutely classic, a complete toss up with Austin-Rock as the definitive WWF match. Then there was Hart's heel turn. Holy shit was that awesome, nothing like that had ever been done, he was a face everywhere in the world except in the states. Insanely innovative and awesome results. People want to know what heat and a hot crowd is? Go watch the 10 man tag main event from Canadian Stampede.

I'm sorry, but someone needs to explain to me 4 reasons why Hennig even belongs in this tourney, let alone why he is better than Hart, because he is most certainly not, and again, I am as huge an HBK mark as there is and don't care much for Bret, so that's saying something.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

^Cosign, again. Hennig's not known for who Hennig was, and unfortunately, the character he is known for is highly overrated. I'll take Hart over Hennig anyday...

 

[Montana]

Bret Hart.

 

[1chiban]

Bret Hart was my favourite wrestler from the old 1990s WWF tapes and still remains in my top 5 faves. I loved him lol. Hennig was a decent wrestler but Bret was better, and was trusted with being world champion on many occasions for good reason, unlike Hennig. I agree with everything you said, Enzo.

If you want to see how Hart was able to adapt - watch the match with Curt, then watch his matches with Owen at 'Mania because it's awesome and then Summerslam '94 for a masterclass in how to be a face champion, then watch his match with Austin at 'Mania 13 for the beginning of a heel turn (admittedly one he didn't want to do) and then watch the rest of the stuff from 1997 as I recall him pulling off that 'heel everywhere but in Canada and the UK' character off brilliantly. His WCW run was forgettable at best but I agree with him in saying that that was probably more down to bad booking than anything else.

 

[Veritas]

See, I don't buy that Hart was this master wrestler who could adapt to anyone. Yes he was a very good wrestler but, even by his own admission in his book, the vast majority of Bret's matches were him doing his spots and working his opponent into the match. I'll say he was, arguably, a better wrestler than Hennig and he accomplished much more but, in my opinion, that's where his topping of Hennig ends.

Hennig's matches, to me, were almost always different. He didn't have the same signature moves that he worked into every match in the same order. There seemed to be alot more give and take with Hennig and his opponents in their matches than there was in Bret's matches. Hennig took fantastic, unreal bumps whereas Bret kept things overly simple in my opinion. I also don't get the knock against Hennig that his best matches were before he was in WWE - so what? This tournament isn't about who was better in WWE, it's about who was better all around. Bret was good, but it is my opinion that Hennig was better.

What was Bret on the mic? Flat, boring, and monotonous with the exception of a year or so run where he had a great heel gimmick (the '97 Hart Foundation). Hennig was a great talker who could have crowds eating out of the palm of his hand. When he was on commentary, he was fantastic at talking up the guys in the ring while still getting himself over at the same time. When did Bret ever do that? All of his promos, to me, were the same old-same old "I'm the best there is, best there was, and best there ever will be." He did little to talk his opponents up, whereas Hennig shined in this.

Bret was a better draw, sure, but that's because he was put in a position to be a better draw. And, when you think about it, Bret really wasn't that good of a draw. The Dark Days, as they're called, were highlighted by the reigns off Bret and HBK. Sure he was on top, but every measurable revenue stream from house show attendance to buyrates were down. Had Hennig been put in the position Bret was, I'm sure he could've at least met the same numbers Bret was "drawing." If Bret was such a fantastic draw, at the very least his early tenure in WCW (meaning before he was booked into obscurity) would've meant something and, honestly, it didn't. Bret was a star to people, sure, but outside Canada and the UK, he was never much of a real draw.

Hennig, and again this is IMO, trumps Hart as far as in-ring ability, mic ability, and charisma. I'm giving him the nod.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

^^^I'm sorry, you were just way to vague in your defense of Hennig. Please, for debates sake thicken your argument. Please respond to these: outside his nice two year run of excellence in AWA, and his matches with Hart in the WWF, what makes Hennig so distinguished in your opinion.

Please list any non-Hennig/Hart or Hennig/Bock match that is even half good as Hart/Michaels, Hart/Austin (both), Hart/Benoit (both), Bret/Owen (cage or Mania X). You can't because the only Hennig match that even equals any of those is Hennig/Bock. Hennig-Hart is not even in Bret's top ten matches. And again, I am far from a Bret fan, but realistically, Hennigs gimmick was memorable, but nothing he did in the ring the last fifteen years in his career outside of his matches with Hart and his one decent tag match in WCW is memorable. When you have a guy who, as many of us believe, myself included, doing the same spots in his matches, but yet having so many classic, memorable matches, well that trumps anything Hennig ever did. And again, the proof is in the putting and Bret's got the proof and Hennig's best matches post-AWA, in his back pocket.

 

[Veritas]

How was I vague? I thought I was very clear when I said the reason I rate Hennig higher in terms of wrestling ability than Hart is because Hennig didn't need to rely on the 5 Moves of Doom mindset in every match. Hennig's matches were, for the most part, all different, all unique. That's what makes him distinguished IMO. I could close my eyes and call the ending of about 95% of Hart's matches - with Hennig I couldn't. That's a plus to me.

Comparing Bret's in-ring career to Hennig's is a mistake because, as I said before, Bret was put in a better position to succeed than Hennig was. You're right, I can't find a number of "Hennig Classics" that top those you listed about Bret but there is a reason for that. While Bret was being put in a position to have these classic matches with the likes of HBK, Austin, Owen, etc. what was Hennig doing? Wrestling people like Greg Gagne, the Red Rooster, Brutus Beefcake, etc. Hart had a number of guys he could work WITH to deliver great matches - Hennig had a number of guys he had to CARRY to watchable matches.

What makes Hennig so distinguished? He was a better talker, a better character, more charismatic, and, in my opinion, a better worker. He may not have the match resume to back it up, but as I've already said, that was more on how he was booked and who he was booked against than anything else. As a general rule of thumb, I was much more impressed and happy with a 10-minute Hennig midcard match than a 15-20 minute Bret main event match. If a healthy Hennig had been given a main event run against HBK, Owen, and Austin I'm absolutely certain he could have delivered as wel - no, BETTER than Hart did.

 

[1chiban]

Bret's comeback was repetitive, I'll give you that. But so were many others including such great workers as HBK, to be fair.

One more point on Hennig - The Perfectplex is one of the lamest finishers ever - it's a vertical suplex with less impact than a normal one!

 

[Airfixx]

^^^^Couldn't you say the same of Samoa Joe's Muscle Buster?

Perfect Plex (or cradle suplex if you prefer) not requiring you to lift the guy so high means more energy can be dedicated to creating your own 'throwing' motion, rather than lifting the guy up and letting gravity do the rest. Couple that with the fact that it is also a pinning combination where LITERALLY 3 seconds after impact the ref could have reached three (as opposed to however much longer it takes for a cover to take place, for the ref to get into position and THEN count 3) it's always seemed plausible enough and 'efficient' to me.


Perfect v Bret...

Sadly, Perfect never really truly recovered from the back injury that put him on the shelf after SSLam 91... A sad case of unfulfilled potential. IMO, you only need to look as far as Perfect's fued with Hogan to see that he had all the tools. Perfect would have thrived far better in todays WWE where the mic is king and you're given like 1 TV match to get over than Bret ever would. In fact would Bret even get over in todays WWE? Hmmmm....

I guess, on paper, Bret reigns supreme, but 'on paper' doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

And neither does unfulfilled potential. Bret was more over as a young face than Perfect ever was as a heel. The only time Curt's best heat can be compared to Bret's best heat is Curt's AWA heyday. His feud with Hogan? What? All month of it? Perfect was just a stop gap feud with Hogan in between PPVs. Hogan's feud with Earthquake was better than Perfect having a one- off with Hogan for Saturday Night's Main Event and Tenta got far more over than Hennig ever did against Hogan.

And Hennig was decent on the mic, he never cut any epic promos, as most of his WWF stuff was protected by his gimmick and was just a decent play by play guy when he was in the booth, no better than Savage in the booth, and it's not even debatable who was a better promo cutter. Just give me some examples. Something epic,Unfulfilled potential doesn't cut it. Just give me some thing, ANYTHING he did memorable. Preference doesn't equate to substance. Hart has substance, Hennig has the least amount of substance of anyone in this tourney.

Unfulfilled potential; Len Bias, Bo Jackson, KiJana Carter, David Carr, Kyle Petty, Jr. JaMarcus Russell...they had unfulfilled potential, but do they get spoken about the all time greats that have the proof "on paper" as you say? No. Why? Because potential is only that, greatness is achieved when potential is fulfilled. And please, don't play the injury card because Flair came back from a broken back in less than a year, HBK has had multiple leg surgeries, and a guy who should be on here, who isn't, has had busted knees for the past ten years while being the most consistent guy on the roster and a bonafide draw in Rey Mysterio.

 

[Airfixx]

And neither does unfulfilled potential.

LOL.... Of course not. How could it? ...A rediculous notion.

Just bringing a few comments into the mix that I hadn't already seen in this thread so as to even up the balance a little bit bearing in mind Hennig is being made out to be somewhat of a jabroni here, when in truth he WAS a fine, fine talent.

Bret was more over as a young face than Perfect ever was as a heel.

You're measuring this how?

Not really sure how you expect me to credibly measure and compare the two, but Perfect had plenty of heat... Especially during his IC reign. Ok, you could attribute some of that to the addition of Heenan after he won said title, but again I'm left wondering how you can quantify such stuff...

Again, this is why you don't see me contribute to lists of 'The Best...'.... Like virtually every other person here I have not been blessed with the facts and figures to start saying "X was more over than Y" 20 years ago or "X drew more than Y". I'm no wrestling historian - I've just watched enough wrestling over the last 30 years to take the average smark to school.

Interested as to why you think that, bearing in mind they never did a Hart Foundation split angle, when Warrior vacated the IC title after WM6, if Hart was significantly more over than Perfect, why didn't they use the tournament to push Bret to the IC belt instead of Perfect? (***)

I'm also interested how you (or anyone else) think the pair of them would comparatively fair in today's WWE (i.e. Who would get onthe better of the two).

His feud with Hogan? What? All month of it? Perfect was just a stop gap feud with Hogan in between PPVs. Hogan's feud with Earthquake was better than Perfect having a one- off with Hogan for Saturday Night's Main Event and Tenta got far more over than Hennig ever did against Hogan.

He was HOT after the Hogan fued, problem was they killed all his momentum by having Beefcake (for some reason) quash him (and the perfect record) at WM6... I believe it was his performance during this program (with Hogan) that convinced the office to push him to the IC belt(***).

Meanwhile, Earthquake was the first guy in WWE to put Hogan on the shelf.... He deprived all the little hulkamaniacs of their hero for like 5 months.... There's blatantly much more heat to be gained. BUT whatever, none of my comments suggested Hennig was Hogan's best fued, better than 'Quakes fued with Hogan or anything else your post suggests.... I simply stated that I perceived Hennig to have the TOOLS to make it as a ME-er as a result of that program.

Unless you're telling me you dont' think Hennig had the tools to ME in WWF then, there's not really a debate to be had.

And Hennig was decent on the mic, he never cut any epic promos, as most of his WWF stuff was protected by his gimmick

Not sure what you mean by that last part....

and was just a decent play by play guy when he was in the booth, no better than Savage in the booth,

I'm a huuuuge Savage fan, but I thought Savage was terrible in the booth.

and it's not even debatable who was a better promo cutter.

You mean between Bret & Perfect or Perfect & Savage? ...Regardless:

Promos...
1. Savage
2. Perfect
3. Bret

Unfulfilled potential; Len Bias, Bo Jackson, KiJana Carter, David Carr, Kyle Petty, Jr. JaMarcus Russell...

Sorry, none of those names mean anything to me....

And please, don't play the injury card because Flair came back from a broken back in less than a year, HBK has had multiple leg surgeries, and a guy who should be on here, who isn't, has had busted knees for the past ten years while being the most consistent guy on the roster and a bonafide draw in Rey Mysterio.

So one guy makes a speedy recovery from an injury, so everyone should have as much 'healing prowess'? Naaaaaaahhh...

Regardless, I wasn't playing any "card".... He WASN'T the same during his brief run in '93 or in WCW.



Mysterio: Best blame all the smark-asses that voted in the preliminarys!

 

[He who knows more than Nation]

Just bringing a few comments into the mix that I hadn't already seen in this thread so as to even up the balance a little bit bearing in mind Hennig is being made out to be somewhat of a jabroni here, when in truth he WAS a fine, fine talent.

Not trying to make him out to be a jabroni, but the truth of the matter is that he was just another in a long line of absolutely fine mid card talents the WWF had in the 80's. Jake Roberts deserves to be here more than Hennig, and Rick Rude is even debatable compared to Hennig. People act as if Hennig was this great, ultra elite talent and he wasn't. His best stuff is unknown to 95% of the people who voted him in and outside his IC run and matches with Bret, he did next to nothing from 88 till his death. Rick Rude and Jake Roberts both had better WWE runs with better, more memorable feuds.

Unless you're telling me you dont' think Hennig had the tools to ME in WWF then, there's not really a debate to be had.

Basically that's what I'm saying. Didn't really have the main event look and wasn't as over as comparable guys like Roberts and Rude got.

He was HOT after the Hogan fued, problem was they killed all his momentum by having Beefcake (for some reason) quash him (and the perfect record) at WM6... I believe it was his performance during this program (with Hogan) that convinced the office to push him to the IC belt

Define "HOT". He wasn't, he was marginally over but again, behind Rude and DiBiasie on the mid card heel depth chart. Beefcake was hot, at that point he was easily the top mid card face and only behind Hogan and Warrior, so he being paired with Beefcake was more than fair. And I don't really recall their Mania match being a squash.

He got pushed to the IC belt because the IC belt was notoriously heel held. Savage and Honky Tonk Man basically dominated that belt for three years with Warrior getting a year run and Rude sneaking in a small reign. From 78-88, there was only four months worth of heel world title reign time, Savage and Sheik. The World title was booked around faces, the IC title booked around mid card heels. Rude couldn't take the title because he was in the middle of a world title program with Warrior and basically DiBiasie couldn't do much with the belt since it was basically beneath him, as he was an established upper mid carder.

Not sure what you mean by that last part....

I meant that he never really cut a true promo, his promos were basically formulaic and done in correlation with his narcissistic character. Not that there is anything wrong, but he never showed much range in his promos in the WWF. Just a couple of insults thrown in with his trademark "I'm absolutely Perfect" tagline. Really, his only true great promo is when he joined Savage to take on Razor and Flair and he stood up for himself.

So one guy makes a speedy recovery from an injury, so everyone should have as much 'healing prowess'? Naaaaaaahhh...

Regardless, I wasn't playing any "card".... He WASN'T the same during his brief run in '93 or in WCW.

No, the point I was trying to make was that this guy is over rated for such a small period of time he was recognizable (88-91) and had few memorable matches, then basically when he got back from injury that the last ten-twelve years of his career are incredibly forgettable. So how does a guy with such a narrow window of success get a pass to an elite wrestler tourney when his career lacks longevity. I say Michaels and Flair because they had far more severe injuries, in which they should have never wrestled again, only to comeback to become the pinnacle of the industry. Again, he was a great talent, a great mid card talent and involved in one of the greatest fueds of all time against Bock, but again, 95% of the people are completely unaware of it. And this has NOTHING to do with me or anyone being wrestling elitists, snobs or nerds or acting holier-than-thou, but how does a guy who's best known run was three years, had one IC title reign and one truly memorable match get into this tourney? That's my question. Everyone else in this tourney had far more success, memorable moments and longevity than Hennig ever did. He just doesn't belong, subjectively and objectively. No one lacks as much substance in this tourney as Curt Hennig. A mid card talent known best for a decent 3 year run doesn't stack up to Bret Hart ( a guy I heavily admit I am not a fan of) nor anyone else in this tourney. But this is just all for debates sake anyway. Hopefully my asshole smarkiness doesn't prevent anymore of these debates as this has been easily the most worthwhile thing done on this site as long as I've been a member.

 

[Veritas]

This poll is closed, Hart advances.