Unfair criticism of Randy Orton.

[Sage.]

The guy gets called the "SmackDown John Cena" or "The new HHH of burying". He hasn't buried anyone on SmackDown. If someone can name me one person I'll stand corrected.

He put over Henry clean twice, and made Henry's reign one of the most exciting in a very long time because of that. He's put on absolutely FANTASTIC matches on a regular basis, yet doesn't get the credit as lets say Punk, Bryan or Christian would get. He feuds with Barrett and Barrett comes off better pretty much every SmackDown week, so what if Orton wins at the PPV in a very close match? That's not burying.

That just shows Barrett can hang with the big boys. The matches with Christian were fantastic, so good no one cared (casually) that Christian lost, and it fitted his gimmick perfectly ("One more match"). Yet people will criticize him for not losing clean. Wasn't Orton's fault he took it off Christian 5 days later his first reign, that's creative. Beginning of Orton's face run I wasn't happy, he was a fantastic heel, one of the best ever in WWE; and became a "Superman face". They do this with every major face turn though, Sheamus is the latest. But his matches, his feuds, and everything about him is making me a fan again. That's pretty good since I never ever cheer for superman faces.

 

[Tombstone Piledriver]

I believe Randall is on a decline.

 

[seabs]

He buried christian. Christian went from winning the title and looking like a main eventer to looking like crap. Even when he won the belt everyone knew he wouldn't hold it long.

 

[Crayo]

He buried christian. Christian went from winning the title and looking like a main eventer to looking like crap. Even when he won the belt everyone knew he wouldn't hold it long.

That's creative, not Orton's fault.

Obviously that time Vince was just trolling, he always seems to do it. Or they were using it as a platform for the "one more match" gimmick, Orton hasn't really buried anyone. People overuse the word buried. The matches were insane, Christian was close to winning them on many occasions (perhaps not the one after he won the title for the first time).

I completely agree with Sage on this one.

 

[seabs]

That's creative, not Orton's fault.

Obviously that time Vince was just trolling, he always seems to do it. Or they were using it as a platform for the "one more match" gimmick, Orton hasn't really buried anyone. People overuse the word buried. The matches were insane, Christian was close to winning them on many occasions (perhaps not the one after he won the title for the first time).

I completely agree with Sage on this one.

It's creatives fault with HHH and Cena then? I mean Randy seems to have a lot of stroke backstage so surely he could have agreed let Christian hold the belt longer? Christian got a really god pop after he won the belt but after he feuded with Orton he got little to no reaction. That in my opinion is burying. Making someone look worse then he did previously. He also took punk from looking like a threat earlier on in the year, after taking out Cena to looking like he couldn't hang during their feud. Since his move to smackdown Randy has been the best performer in the WWE and he has put people over alot. However he does seem to bury the odd person from time to time.

 

[Crayo]

It's creatives fault with HHH and Cena then? I mean Randy seems to have a lot of stroke backstage so surely he could have agreed let Christian hold the belt longer? Christian got a really god pop after he won the belt but after he feuded with Orton he got little to no reaction. That in my opinion is burying. Making someone look worse then he did previously. He also took punk from looking like a threat earlier on in the year, after taking out Cena to looking like he couldn't hang during their feud. Since his move to smackdown Randy has been the best performer in the WWE and he has put people over alot. However he does seem to bury the odd person from time to time.

I don't see Cena as burying people, I completely disagree with most people's theory on what burying is. HHH is a burial master. He actually runs backstage, if there's anyone that can say "NO" it's him. It's no lie that he put himself in his feud with Punk earlier this year, and turned it from "Punk vs Conspiracy of WWE" which was epic to "HHH vs Nash" which was a flop. He also went over on Punk when punk was slowly becoming the most over guy on the roster, for absolutely no reason. All that happened is Punk looked like a whiner, which wasn't his gimmick at all.

If people knew after Randy beat Christian that Christian was going to get it back very soon after, and have it for a decent amount of time, then I'm sure they would be fine. That whole reign was there to turn Christian heel right? They didn't want Christian winning the title as a heel, probably because Edge was there and they wanted that moment between two best mates, the crowd ate it up as you say. Orton takes it, Christian goes heel and gets it back. Now we have entertaining heel Christian, instead of boring face Christian. That to me was long-term booking, something everyone including myself criticize "creative" of not doing. Let's face it, there was no room for face Christian in the main event, so you could say his feud with Orton pushed Christian into the main event which it did, making Christian look better .

 

[seabs]

I don't see Cena as burying people, I completely disagree with most people's theory on what burying is. HHH is a burial master. He actually runs backstage, if there's anyone that can say "NO" it's him. It's no lie that he put himself in his feud with Punk earlier this year, and turned it from "Punk vs Conspiracy of WWE" which was epic to "HHH vs Nash" which was a flop. He also went over on Punk when punk was slowly becoming the most over guy on the roster, for absolutely no reason. All that happened is Punk looked like a whiner, which wasn't his gimmick at all.

If people knew after Randy beat Christian that Christian was going to get it back very soon after, and have it for a decent amount of time, then I'm sure they would be fine. That whole reign was there to turn Christian heel right? They didn't want Christian winning the title as a heel, probably because Edge was there and they wanted that moment between two best mates, the crowd ate it up as you say. Orton takes it, Christian goes heel and gets it back. Now we have entertaining heel Christian, instead of boring face Christian. That to me was long-term booking, something everyone including myself criticize "creative" of not doing. Let's face it, there was no room for face Christian in the main event, so you could say his feud with Orton pushed Christian into the main event which it did, making Christian look better .

I'll admit Christian is more entertaining heel then face but I disagree in this instance they had the chance to run a fresh storyline of the veteran having a good feel good run then putting some one over as a main event heel, not Mark Henry someone with true potential such as Cody Rhodes or even a heel Bryan. I understand it's subjective about entertainment value but to me personally Christian has fallen down the rankings in that aspect since he's become a complainer rather then an arrogant heel, see 2005*.

Also has Christian gotten any decent heat for any decent amount of time during the Orton feud? I can't recall anytime for the top of my head tbh. If Orton did put him over and increase his standing as you say shouldn't he have gotten some decent heat? I mean it's not a del rio situation were no one cares. People did care about Christian but the care was sucked up due to bad booking imo.

*I'm not sure if you have seen his work from that time so he's a few examples ;

 

[Crayo]

I'll admit Christian is more entertaining heel then face but I disagree in this instance they had the chance to run a fresh storyline of the veteran having a good feel good run then putting some one over as a main event heel, not Mark Henry someone with true potential such as Cody Rhodes or even a heel Bryan. I understand it's subjective about entertainment value but to me personally Christian has fallen down the rankings in that aspect since he's become a complainer rather then an arrogant heel, see 2005*.

Also has Christian gotten any decent heat for any decent amount of time during the Orton feud? I can't recall anytime for the top of my head tbh. If Orton did put him over and increase his standing as you say shouldn't he have gotten some decent heat? I mean it's not a del rio situation were no one cares. People did care about Christian but the care was sucked up due to bad booking imo.

*I'm not sure if you have seen his work from that time so he's a few examples ;

They didn't have to do it, but I feel there was no one he could of feuded with as a face. At the time Bryan and Rhodes weren't ready at all, and were busy in other feuds (Rhodes was, not sure about Bryan). I really enjoy Christians whiney gimmick, but you're right, he doesn't get the reactions he deserves. But I think because he's been a face for a long long long period of time, he was still getting cheers in his current heel run. Now he's getting more boo's again, people are getting used to it.

Yeah, if he went over Orton clean I suppose he could of maybe got more heat, hard to say; but that doesn't push his "whine for one more match" gimmick, which is really entertaining. He's like Miz, not going to be booked as a strong competitor, but more as a heel who will do anything to win and not give a shit.

And yeah, watched his work back then, the guy was incredible and that's when I became a true fan of his. But I still would not say Orton buried him, he made Christian relevant again. That's my opinion anyway, I would of obviously preferred Christian to go over clean and have a very long reign, but that's coming from a massive Christian fan .

 

[seabs]

They didn't have to do it, but I feel there was no one he could of feuded with as a face. At the time Bryan and Rhodes weren't ready at all, and were busy in other feuds (Rhodes was, not sure about Bryan). I really enjoy Christians whiney gimmick, but you're right, he doesn't get the reactions he deserves. But I think because he's been a face for a long long long period of time, he was still getting cheers in his current heel run. Now he's getting more boo's again, people are getting used to it.

Yeah, if he went over Orton clean I suppose he could of maybe got more heat, hard to say; but that doesn't push his "whine for one more match" gimmick, which is really entertaining. He's like Miz, not going to be booked as a strong competitor, but more as a heel who will do anything to win and not give a shit.

And yeah, watched his work back then, the guy was incredible and that's when I became a true fan of his. But I still would not say Orton buried him, he made Christian relevant again.

He could have feuded with Sheamus who I believe was heel at that time for 3 months use Sheamus' temper against Christian's wit then moved onto Barret who should have been built up from that time. Have Barret take the belt even after a match or two. At least that would have achieved something rather then putting the belt on a established main eventer.

I wouldn't want Christian to go over clean too much just once after an epic 20 - 25 minute rather then the B.S. ending at MITB. Instead they had him win by DQ then get destroyed on the announce table twice? Would anyone take him seriously after that even the kids?

The thing is if it's taken 6 months for people to react to a heel turn shouldn't that be a reason they shouldn't have done it? If he was getting a positive reaction why fight it? The majority of WWE faces aren't over so why take one who is and turn him heel?

I'd say Edge's injury made Christian relevant because that's when he was given a chance to work and the feud with Randy was just working from that.

 

[Crayo]

He could have feuded with Sheamus who I believe was heel at that time for 3 months use Sheamus' temper against Christian's wit then moved onto Barret who should have been built up from that time. Have Barret take the belt even after a match or two. At least that would have achieved something rather then putting the belt on a established main eventer.

I wouldn't want Christian to go over clean too much just once after an epic 20 - 25 minute rather then the B.S. ending at MITB. Instead they had him win by DQ then get destroyed on the announce table twice? Would anyone take him seriously after that even the kids?

The thing is if it's taken 6 months for people to react to a heel turn shouldn't that be a reason they shouldn't have done it? If he was getting a positive reaction why fight it? The majority of WWE faces aren't over so why take one who is and turn him heel?

I'd say Edge's injury made Christian relevant because that's when he was given a chance to work and the feud with Randy was just working from that.

Your way would of worked if WWE had faith in him. Putting Christian in that sort of booking would leave Orton stranded for one thing, and it'd mean Christian would be the #1 face. WWE have never ever had faith in Christian, Vince just likes to troll us. They thought that him winning as a face would be a great moment, which it was with Edge there, he loses it after and turns into whine-heel gimmick which they thought would be over. People loved him too much. But even as a face he was no where near Orton reactions, let's be honest. You can't leave Orton who was getting massive pops out of the title picture for too long.

But still none of the above was Orton's fault, he hasn't buried Christian I don't think personally anyway. He's made him into a main eventer, where WWE could if they wanted do more with him but they just have no faith. Last thing I want is a Christian face-turn though.

 

[seabs]

Your way would of worked if WWE had faith in him. Putting Christian in that sort of booking would leave Orton stranded for one thing, and it'd mean Christian would be the #1 face. WWE have never ever had faith in Christian, Vince just likes to troll us. They thought that him winning as a face would be a great moment, which it was with Edge there, he loses it after and turns into whine-heel gimmick which they thought would be over. People loved him too much. But even as a face he was no where near Orton reactions, let's be honest. You can't leave Orton who was getting massive pops out of the title picture for too long.

But still none of the above was Orton's fault, he hasn't buried Christian I don't think personally anyway. He's made him into a main eventer, where WWE could if they wanted do more with him but they just have no faith. Last thing I want is a Christian face-turn though.

I'm not doubting Randy was so more over and Christian would have never reached that height but Randy is so over he could have made a mid card heel or two relevant in the time instead of dominating Christian. I'm not saying he should have stayed there forever but it would have been time better used imo. Plus he's so over his pops aren't going to diminish because he doesn't main event for a few months. I mean he hasn't main evented a smackdown PPV since HIAC I believe and he's still the most over in the WWE imo.

I'll admit it's down to Vince not having the belief in Christian. However Randy is getting credit for putting people over now when it should be creatives if it's creatives fault for Christians diminishing credibility during their feud surely?

 

[CM Punk]

Randy Orton RKO'd Christian back to Mid-Card.
After his match with Mark Henry he took Henry out with a Chair.

 

[Crayo]

I'm not doubting Randy was so more over and Christian would have never reached that height but Randy is so over he could have made a mid card heel or two relevant in the time instead of dominating Christian. I'm not saying he should have stayed there forever but it would have been time better used imo. Plus he's so over his pops aren't going to diminish because he doesn't main event for a few months. I mean he hasn't main evented a smackdown PPV since HIAC I believe and he's still the most over in the WWE imo.

I'll admit it's down to Vince not having the belief in Christian. However Randy is getting credit for putting people over now when it should be creatives if it's creatives fault for Christians diminishing credibility during their feud surely?

I do see your point, definitely. Orton is the closest star power they have to Cena right? He's not far off being level with Cena in that respect, so people expect him to be like Cena, a superman. But he hasn't been that, even in his matches. With Christian, it wasn't like he got beat down for most of the match, came back, and won. It was he had to do something absolutely amazing (RKO on steps) to put him away, that's putting Christian over as a credible heel, losing didn't make a difference.

At that period, Orton was hot, and he needed the title. I believe SmackDown were testing whether Orton would draw. So perhaps in some peoples perspective he buried Christian, but that feud with Orton put Christian in the ME did it not? He's no longer mid-carding.

Randy Orton RKO'd Christian back to Mid-Card.
After his match with Mark Henry he took Henry out with a Chair.

No he didn't lol, Christian was main eventing till injury. He was also the mouth-peace of the group that was speaking out against Triple H.

So what if he took Henry out with a chair? Henry won the match clean, twice. If that's not putting someone over what is? Henry won clean, Orton had to use a weapon to beat him down. Henry looks credible, Orton still keeps his psychotic strong character.

 

[CM Punk]

I do see your point, definitely. Orton is the closest star power they have to Cena right? He's not far off being level with Cena in that respect, so people expect him to be like Cena, a superman. But he hasn't been that, even in his matches. With Christian, it wasn't like he got beat down for most of the match, came back, and won. It was he had to do something absolutely amazing (RKO on steps) to put him away, that's putting Christian over as a credible heel, losing didn't make a difference.

At that period, Orton was hot, and he needed the title. I believe SmackDown were testing whether Orton would draw. So perhaps in some peoples perspective he buried Christian, but that feud with Orton put Christian in the ME did it not? He's no longer mid-carding.


No he didn't lol, Christian was main eventing till injury. He was also the mouth-peace of the group that was speaking out against Triple H.

So what if he took Henry out with a chair? Henry won the match clean, twice. If that's not putting someone over what is? Henry won clean, Orton had to use a weapon to beat him down. Henry looks credible, Orton still keeps his psychotic strong character.

Christian hasn't won a legit match on Smackdown against Sin Cara time ago and before that Extreme Rules where he won the Championship. Other than that he has been jobbing. He's now only Upper Mid Card.
As for Henry , he was supposed to look like a monster and he killed that character by attacking him. He took most of the credibility of looking like a Monster and now Henry doesn't seem like a legit threat. In fact he's a bit scared now.

 

[Crayo]

Christian hasn't won a legit match on Smackdown against Sin Cara time ago and before that Extreme Rules where he won the Championship. Other than that he has been jobbing. He's now only Upper Mid Card.
As for Henry , he was supposed to look like a monster and he killed that character by attacking him. He took most of the credibility of looking like a Monster and now Henry doesn't seem like a legit threat. In fact he's a bit scared now.

Big Show done that to him. Orton put Henry over, 99/100 people of the IWC will say the same. He beat Orton clean twice, one of those times in a cage wasn't it? Or HIAC? Orton didn't damage Henry at all.

As for Christian, he was in the main event the whole feud with Orton, even after it he hung around with his "one more match" gimmick. At the time, Sin Cara was hot. He was getting huge pops and was breaking upper mid-card, so they put him in a feud with a main event Christian which I suppose took him out of the main event, no way is that Orton's fault.